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Forums - Nintendo - Put a fork in the Wii U, it is done. [Sensible discussion only, no flaming]

noname2200 said:
Akvod said:
noname2200 said:
Akvod said:

I thought Michael Pachter had a pretty simple and compelling argument. You mainly make money off of consoles by:

1) Royalties/Licensing fees from third party games.

2) Selling your consoles at a profit

You forgot 3) Selling your own games.

Not joking: at the rate Nintendo games often sell, the royalties they save by being first party have to be pretty monstrous.


It sounds like you're assuming that Nintendo's software business is profitable because of the existence of a Nintendo hardware (which I think is a plausible argument).

 

Now can you elaborate more? Can you give a convincing argument why total sales for a Mario or Zelda game will be less if it was sold under 3 or 2 consoles, as opposed to 1? Less enthusiasm/brand awareness? Mismatch between the segment that own a PlayStation/XBox and the segment that buy Mario/Zelda (that is, without a Nintendo console, parents won't buy their young children a console and old school Nintendo fans will refuse to buy a Nintendo game that goes 3'rd party?)

 

Pacther's saying that Nintendo will basically be able to sell to triple the number of people they could sell (assuming that the WiiU, PS4, and 720 have equal sales) if they were first party.

You're arguing a combination of lower margins (due to royalties) and/or lower sales volume. And honestly, it doesn't sound that convincing. Will Nintendo fans really get that upset and refuse to buy a Zelda game that goes to the PlayStation or Xbox (so much for loyalty)? Will PlayStation and XBox owners not buy a Zelda game? Maybe you could argue that not many Xbox owners will buy a non-shooter game, but again, Pachter is saying that Nintendo will be selling X number of games to Xbox owners ON TOP of the number of games they would sell to WiiU.

Again, Pachter's logic is basically you will sell roughly 3 times the number of games by you would sell by going multiplatform, as opposed to exclusive. You obviously need to adjust it here and there (not all three consoles will have equal market share, less potential buzz for non-exclusives, segment mismatch), but the logic is simple and sound.

You're going to have show that the increase in game sales will actually have to be NEGATIVE. That Nintendo going 3'rd party will actually result in their games selling LESS than if they were first party.

You're misunderstanding. Take a look at your own point #1. The hardware manufacturer makes significant money off royalties of third-party games. Scuttlebutt has it this is about $8 per copy, if memory serves.

Now, take Nintendo's software sales. Deduct the appropriate royalty fees from each copy they've sold, because they're now a third-party. In light of how they can make several games that sell 20 million+ copies, with several more selling 10 million+ and a whole bunch selling over a million each, the savings are significant, to say the least. Mario Kart Wii alone would have earned Nintendo roughly $240 million less (grossly simplified for illustration purposes, of course) had it not been on a Nintendo console. Similar astronomical figures would apply to NSMB Wii, Wii Fit/+, Wii Sports Resort, etc.

So that's my point #3.

 

On a broader note, I think you're being far too quick to dismiss the amount of third-party software that does sell on Nintendo's systems. The data don't support the idea that third-party games don't sell on Nintendo systems. That might be what the meme says, and that might be what Pachter says, but that's not what the figures say. Until the end, the Wii was consistently moving a higher volume of third-party titles than the rival systems. Some may grouse about the type of software that was sold, or that Hardcore Franchise X sold seven or eight times more on rival systems, but for purposes of this financial discussion that amounts to a hill of beans; Casual Franchises A-W combined sold more copies than Hardcore Franchises X-Z, which in terms of third party royalty fees means the Casual Franchises brought in more money for the hardware developer.

Moving on, it's nice that Pachter is throwing out hypothetical figures with nothing to back them up. I, however, have a great deal of difficulty believing that the audience size would magically triple (even he only said "double."). You point out that this idea presumes there's zero overlap in console ownership, for example, but the idea also ignores that the disappearance of the Wii destroys over a third of the console market in a single swoop. And make no mistake: without Nintendo's exclusives, Nintendo consoles would be doing backflips to reach Gamecube figures. If the whining goes that first-party software sales on Nintendo systems is nearly half the total software moved, what makes you think the public will pay for expensive hardware that plays only some of the games they want? If Mario's on a PS3, why on Earth would I get a Wii U? Put alternatively, I don't think it's a coincidence that hardware developers have historically kept their first-party software exclusive to their own console. And expended considerable energy and treasure to acquire third-party exclusives.

Oh yeah, and you're also either expending Nintendo's already stretched development resources thinner by forcing them to port the games to different hardware architectures, or trusting third-parties to maintain Nintendo's reputation by not delivering technically shoddy ports.

To summarize: as the only existing hardware maker whose first-party software shifts a ludicrous amount of units, Nintendo is saving more money in unpaid royalties each console generation than the GDP of some third-world nations. They also currently rake in significant royalties from third-parties as it is. There is not a shred of evidence I can see to indicate that going multi-platform would actually triple, or even double, Nintendo's software sales, but we can infer from the data that doing so would very likely lead to a notable decline in Nintendo hardware sales.

Simply put, I'm not at all burdened to show that going multi-plat would lead to their games selling less. On the contrary, Michael Pachter has the burden of giving some evidence that going mutli-plat will actually double (and you, triple) Nintendo's software sales, and that it will not significantly damage Nintendo's bottom line in the form of reduced hardware sales, higher royalty costs, and an even bigger decrease in third-party titles for its own systems.

So where are your figures to back that up? 



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mutantclown said:

So where are your figures to back that up? 

 

A correction for myself: I had believed the above graphs were through the end of 2009, but they instead were merely published in mid-2009. I suspect, with no solid data on hand* that the trend likely began to reverse throughout 2009, and was likely reversed by the end of 2010. Any other "gotcha" questions?

*See how easy it is to admit when you're merely guessing?



bananaking21 said:
mutantclown said:

Since not many people noticed the Wii U is a totally new Nintendo console, if I were Nintendo I would prepare a total re-launch this fall to fight the arrival of the next-gen consoles. I would re-brand the console "Nintendo Ultra" redesign it with an internal HDD, optical audio output, 5.1 dolby/DTS support and ethernet, USB 3.0. I would make a serious effort and investment to make the Nintendo Network faster and better in every way. I would also make sure to have a new 3D Mario for the re-launch. The prices would stay the same, $300 and $350, HDD capacity matching the ones offered by the competition. I would phase out Wii U, and re-brand and re-release the existing Wii U library as Nintendo Ultra games. It seems desperate, but I think it's better than cutting the prices. Let's face it, the Wii U has a serious branding and positioning problem, cutting the price won't help it and some new games won't be enough in the long run.


did anything like that drastic ever happen in the video game industry before?

Maybe not, but I kinda agree with him.  Last night I thought the same thing:  The only way to completely turn the Wii U around, is to do a relaunch.

-Nintendo Ultra sounds cool and fits in with the "U"

-I don't think an HDD is needed, but they should just drop the 8GB and include 64GB of flash storage.  That would at least be enough for updates and DLC.

-Honestly they do kinda need another 1GB of ram if they want to be able to keep up.  That would allow 512MB for the GPU, and 1.5GB for the System.  Just enough!  Idk what they would do with the old Wii U's though... 

-And yes the online NEEDS to be launched in full competition with LIVE/PSN

-Sell it for a solid $300 and it would be competitive as hell!



Mr Khan said:
AnthonyW86 said:
 

I don't like to say it but Pachter is so right on this one. The only reason Nintendo made a loss last year was because of Wii-U hardware costs. Also Pachter forgot one very important argument, it's not only about the very small profit they make on the Wii-U you also have to count for all the development costs that came before it's release.

Like he said going software only would be much more profitable for them, though i still think since Nintendo is doing pretty well in the handheld department they could try a Nintendo tablet.

I'm pretty sure they could make a nice deal with Sony or Microsoft where they would have to pay very limited royalty fees anyway.(they probably wouldn't have to pay them at all if they were to release exclusively for only one of them).

I would love a Nintendo/Sony collaberation and it would probably be better for everyone including Nintendo fans, since they would get great 3rd party support and very powerfull hardware.

They couldn't make such a deal (unless it was a matter of exclusivity) because they would be at Sony and Microsoft's mercy when it came to releasing console games. That's the reason why there's money in being a manufacturer; you control the gateways of distribution and make those royalty fees.

When Nintendo's hardware base is too insignificant to merit continuation, that also means that the strength of their software has declined to reflect that, which would mean they'd be in too weak of a position to do much as a third party in the first place. In the meantime, they'd have to trade off revenue from peripherals, the online shop, royalty-free first-party software, third party royalties, and actual hardware income, in exchange for *maybe* getting more software sales for Nintendo-published games only.

I think Sony or Microsoft would probably even want to pay Nintendo if they could get it's franchises on their system. Wichever system would get those games would become the dominant system for sure. That's why i think Nintendo working together with Sony in the future(it would probably take atleast 10 more years) could be interesting because it could make Japan dominant in the videogame industry again.

You have to remember that Nintendo is in a difficult situation right now with the Wii-U. They are not making any money and maybe losing slightly on every system sold, but the price point seems to high to get people interested. Besides on Wii something like 40% of all software sold was from their own studios, so the most money out of softawre came from themselvse. With Wii-U 70% of the total software sales so far are formed by NSMB U and Nintendo Land.

And back in the Gamecube day's Nintendo hade to severely cut the royalty fees to get other developers interested in their system, and this is something that i can see happening with the Wii-U aswell.



fillet said:
Max King of the Wild said:
fillet said:
OP makes valid points...

It's a shame everyone gets on the biased defensive protection mode.

Get a grip!

Ya know, I've been combating people who have been saying ps4 and 720 wwill be worse and people who are saying wii u will triple sales overnight that I never read the op.... and now that I have I agree with you. Though OP could have worked on his presentation. I got just as much flak when I made a thread that put the wii us sales and how low they were into perspective

I know, it's getting out of hand. Sure having a massive dig against a console is silly for no reason but the Wii-U is obviously in dire straights at the moment and to comment on that looking to the future based on what we know now is hardly heracy, but from the replies here one would think the OP is some kind of witch spreading evil curses around.

:)

That made me laugh!  Thank God some people here are sensible.  I got a Vita at launch, and when Vita is doomed threads popped up half way through 2012 I didn't jump on here and defend it like my child. I mean the Vita was (And still is) in big trouble, and I never denied that and acted like it would be fine.

 I was worried!  But it seems price cuts and games will make the difference, so now I can rest easy.  Also the PS4 will use it a ton so I know it isn't a total loss either way.

However the Wii U is doing even worse, and it seems third parties have abandoned ship and price cuts are not helping!  This is NOT GOOD!



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Captain_Tom said:
fillet said:
Max King of the Wild said:
fillet said:
OP makes valid points...

It's a shame everyone gets on the biased defensive protection mode.

Get a grip!

Ya know, I've been combating people who have been saying ps4 and 720 wwill be worse and people who are saying wii u will triple sales overnight that I never read the op.... and now that I have I agree with you. Though OP could have worked on his presentation. I got just as much flak when I made a thread that put the wii us sales and how low they were into perspective

I know, it's getting out of hand. Sure having a massive dig against a console is silly for no reason but the Wii-U is obviously in dire straights at the moment and to comment on that looking to the future based on what we know now is hardly heracy, but from the replies here one would think the OP is some kind of witch spreading evil curses around.

:)

That made me laugh!  Thank God some people here are sensible.  I got a Vita at launch, and when Vita is doomed threads popped up half way through 2012 I didn't jump on here and defend it like my child. I mean the Vita was (And still is) in big trouble, and I never denied that and acted like it would be fine.

 I was worried!  But it seems price cuts and games will make the difference, so now I can rest easy.  Also the PS4 will use it a ton so I know it isn't a total loss either way.

However the Wii U is doing even worse, and it seems third parties have abandoned ship and price cuts are not helping!  This is NOT GOOD!

And you see no hypocrisy, none at all, in declaring that there's no way for the Wii U to turn around?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Max King of the Wild said:
Fayceless said:
Troll Title [no flaming]

An excellent strategy.

On topic: games sell consoles. Wii U will get games. It will sell then. Not on Wii levels, but it'll turn a good profit.



Games didn't sell Game Cube and N64. I don't know how many you expect the U to sell but if it's at SNES or NES levels you are going to be dissapointed.

As for profit? Ps3 lost money... they lost more money because they didn't sell as many as they wanted to... they lost even more money after that because they cut price sooner then they wanted to. Wii U is in the same boat. This is the first time Nintendo sold a console at launch and they definatly aren't selling nearly as much as they expected to sell (probably will miss their initial projection by 35%) and retailers and publishers are calling them out for a price cut.


GameCube and N64 were both profitable game systems.  They made Nintendo lots of money.  In fact, I would argue that games were the only reason GameCube and N64 sold anything at all.

PS3 is no comparison, it launched at $600 and was sold at a loss of over $100.  Wii U is sold only at a slight loss, so it's really not a sensible comparison.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Captain_Tom said:
fillet said:
Max King of the Wild said:
fillet said:

That made me laugh!  Thank God some people here are sensible.  I got a Vita at launch, and when Vita is doomed threads popped up half way through 2012 I didn't jump on here and defend it like my child. I mean the Vita was (And still is) in big trouble, and I never denied that and acted like it would be fine.

 I was worried!  But it seems price cuts and games will make the difference, so now I can rest easy.  Also the PS4 will use it a ton so I know it isn't a total loss either way.

However the Wii U is doing even worse, and it seems third parties have abandoned ship and price cuts are not helping!  This is NOT GOOD!

This has gotten to the point of being silly.  Wii U hasn't had any price cuts, and there is very little evidence for your statement that third parties are abandoning the system.  If anything, Wii U has gotten more third-party support than the Vita.  And you're talking about a handheld that's been out for 14 months versus a new-generation console that's only been out for five.  So, you really have nothing constructive to say or add to your own discussion thread. 

And how many times has Nintendo proven us wrong, now?  I've lost count. 



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Mr Khan said:
Captain_Tom said:
fillet said:
Max King of the Wild said:
fillet said:
OP makes valid points...

It's a shame everyone gets on the biased defensive protection mode.

Get a grip!

Ya know, I've been combating people who have been saying ps4 and 720 wwill be worse and people who are saying wii u will triple sales overnight that I never read the op.... and now that I have I agree with you. Though OP could have worked on his presentation. I got just as much flak when I made a thread that put the wii us sales and how low they were into perspective

I know, it's getting out of hand. Sure having a massive dig against a console is silly for no reason but the Wii-U is obviously in dire straights at the moment and to comment on that looking to the future based on what we know now is hardly heracy, but from the replies here one would think the OP is some kind of witch spreading evil curses around.

:)

That made me laugh!  Thank God some people here are sensible.  I got a Vita at launch, and when Vita is doomed threads popped up half way through 2012 I didn't jump on here and defend it like my child. I mean the Vita was (And still is) in big trouble, and I never denied that and acted like it would be fine.

 I was worried!  But it seems price cuts and games will make the difference, so now I can rest easy.  Also the PS4 will use it a ton so I know it isn't a total loss either way.

However the Wii U is doing even worse, and it seems third parties have abandoned ship and price cuts are not helping!  This is NOT GOOD!

And you see no hypocrisy, none at all, in declaring that there's no way for the Wii U to turn around?


You've got a point somewhat, but only in so far as - it's happened before. Lots of things have happened before.

I personally think if something more is made of the Wii-U Gamepad and used in kiosks in stores more it could really give it the kick up the rear it needs. The Gamepad is clearly the best part of the Wii-U.



Mr Khan said:
Captain_Tom said:
fillet said:
Max King of the Wild said:
fillet said:
OP makes valid points...

It's a shame everyone gets on the biased defensive protection mode.

Get a grip!

Ya know, I've been combating people who have been saying ps4 and 720 wwill be worse and people who are saying wii u will triple sales overnight that I never read the op.... and now that I have I agree with you. Though OP could have worked on his presentation. I got just as much flak when I made a thread that put the wii us sales and how low they were into perspective

I know, it's getting out of hand. Sure having a massive dig against a console is silly for no reason but the Wii-U is obviously in dire straights at the moment and to comment on that looking to the future based on what we know now is hardly heracy, but from the replies here one would think the OP is some kind of witch spreading evil curses around.

:)

That made me laugh!  Thank God some people here are sensible.  I got a Vita at launch, and when Vita is doomed threads popped up half way through 2012 I didn't jump on here and defend it like my child. I mean the Vita was (And still is) in big trouble, and I never denied that and acted like it would be fine.

 I was worried!  But it seems price cuts and games will make the difference, so now I can rest easy.  Also the PS4 will use it a ton so I know it isn't a total loss either way.

However the Wii U is doing even worse, and it seems third parties have abandoned ship and price cuts are not helping!  This is NOT GOOD!

And you see no hypocrisy, none at all, in declaring that there's no way for the Wii U to turn around?

No.  I cannot see a way for it to turn around and sell 50m+.  It won't even sell half of the Wii's numbers unless they do a total relaunch.  Also I never said "Doomed!"  It can turn around, but I don't think Nintendo will manage it.

Hell I will even say the Vita is unlikely to sell 50m+.  My guess is it will sell 20-40m and manage to reach around half of the PSP's sales if lucky.  So if I can admit the Vita is a let down, why can't you guys admit the Wii U is?