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Forums - Sony - PS4 not worth the cost says Nvidia (Read thread, not title)

kain_kusanagi on 16 March 2013
theprof00 said:
kain_kusanagi said:

Good grief man.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to such lengths to intentionally misinterpret another's words as you have.  What I've said is so simple that I'm actually impress that you've been able to reverse its meaning. I'm starting to think you are just being contrarian.

Let's start over. Forget everything you and I have said on the subject so we can stop arguing about semantics and get back to the point.

Ok? I'll start.

I say the headline is fine and anyone that finds it sensational is jumping to the wrong conclusions. What do you say about that? And please don't tell me in length again why you think I've been saying anything else.

Just for fun, I'll make it even simpler.

Title no hurt me. Why title hurt you? J/K ;)

I think it is purposely written to be more sensational than it actually is.

Saying "PS4 is not worth the cost", is different from saying "manufacturing for consoles was seen as an opportunity cost".

The two say very different things. The OP title, CAN be interpreted as the latter, but it takes a big leap to get there because it leaves out important information.

 

Now, to answer your second really eye-rollingly belittling question, the title no hurt me. I was making a joke that you and cgi pretty much have the same point of view, with the only difference being you were criticizing cgi.

So we're starting over, is this going to repeat itself? I imagine your response is simply going to be "if you were (careful to not use the word misled) mistaken, that is your fault". I don't see a resolution to this, Kain. It's very straightforward.

Now that's a statement of opinion I can agree to disagree with!

BTW. Sorry if you found my joke belittling. I though it was cute. It was in jest so I hope you weren't actualy offended.

I think we have beaten this dead horse enough. See you around in other topics. I'm kind of done with this one.



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theprof00 on 16 March 2013
kain_kusanagi said:
theprof00 said:
kain_kusanagi said:

Good grief man.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to such lengths to intentionally misinterpret another's words as you have.  What I've said is so simple that I'm actually impress that you've been able to reverse its meaning. I'm starting to think you are just being contrarian.

Let's start over. Forget everything you and I have said on the subject so we can stop arguing about semantics and get back to the point.

Ok? I'll start.

I say the headline is fine and anyone that finds it sensational is jumping to the wrong conclusions. What do you say about that? And please don't tell me in length again why you think I've been saying anything else.

Just for fun, I'll make it even simpler.

Title no hurt me. Why title hurt you? J/K ;)

I think it is purposely written to be more sensational than it actually is.

Saying "PS4 is not worth the cost", is different from saying "manufacturing for consoles was seen as an opportunity cost".

The two say very different things. The OP title, CAN be interpreted as the latter, but it takes a big leap to get there because it leaves out important information.

 

Now, to answer your second really eye-rollingly belittling question, the title no hurt me. I was making a joke that you and cgi pretty much have the same point of view, with the only difference being you were criticizing cgi.

So we're starting over, is this going to repeat itself? I imagine your response is simply going to be "if you were (careful to not use the word misled) mistaken, that is your fault". I don't see a resolution to this, Kain. It's very straightforward.

Now that's a statement of opinion I can agree to disagree with!

BTW. Sorry if you found my joke belittling. I though it was cute. It was in jest so I hope you weren't actualy offended.

I think we have beaten this dead horse enough. See you around in other topics. I'm kind of done with this one.

well this seems to have ended on a maudlin note, so I'm ok with that. lol. Oh and I wasn't offended, just noting what you were doing. I play mafia a lot, so noting how someone is behaving is just a part of the arguing. :D



Machiavellian on 25 March 2013
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Machiavellian said:
I believe someone already stated this but the difference between Nvidia and ATI/AMD is that Nvidia is looking to make a profit. You cannot fault Nvidia if they did not want to make a chip for the price the console makers were offering. You have to understand that MS, Sony and Nintendo is going to look for the absolute lowest cost they can get their chips. They want to own the tech and be able to manufacture their chips as well. The cost of RD compared to the license they would get for the chips probably did not pay out enough for everything that goes into development. As noted by the article, Nvidia only have so much bandwidth so if they are doing something that is very high cost development but low cost return, then its probably not worth it.

On the other hand people keep talking about how ATI/AMD parts come cheaper and was able to meet the cost the console makers were willing to pay. The problem is that ATI/AMD has been bleeding money for years and if this another situation where they are not pricing a profit from these endevors just to get market share, who knows if that will pay off.

Yes, its great for gamers that ATI/AMD goes low ball but it doesn't look like its good for them. Will be very interested to see if ATI/AMD does become profitable since their tech is all of the consoles. At least for the last gen it did not do them any good being in the 360.

But last gen they provided just the GPU for XB360 and Wii, this time they provide a GPU for Wii U, an APU for XB720 and one for PS4, and those APUs, stripped of MS and Sony customisations, are just the APUs AMD wants to sell for PCs too, so this time it will be able to obtain bigger economies of scale, further increased by the fact that being on PC and two 8th gen consoles, AMD's APU will become a sort of reference platform for mid-low range gaming PCs, ensuring it a longer shelf life.


Actually the benifit is not that great.  Its actually the mobil scene which is way bigger than chasing the console market.  This is the area that Nvidia is putting all of their bandwidth because tablets and smartphones pretty much blow away the install base between a console and PC.  Look at it this way, it took SOny and MS over 7 years combined to reach over 140 million units while that could be reach within a month if you combine phones and tablets.

No big advantage will be gained on the PC because developers program to an API not a GPU.  The fact remains that AMD has to show an actual profit from selling to the console makers and I am sure if there was any real profit to be gained, Nvidia would be there.  The fact is, AMD will be fighting with the console makers tooth and nail to make a profit while the console makers will be shopping their designs to the lowest bidder



binary solo on 25 March 2013
kowenicki said:
JayWood2010 said:
kowenicki said:
JayWood2010 said:
CGI-Quality said:
It's perplexing to think they would title the article that way, since this nViDiA rep doesn't say things in those harsh terms. This isn't against you, Jay, I saw this on a PC website with that title.


Gamespot was the ones who titled this.  It is basically Nvidia making an excuse for a big loss in my opinion.  Both NeXbox and PS4 will be using rival AMD chips which could potentially lose nvidia over 100m  units sold in the next 5 years

or AMD went cheap to win the contract and will have undersold themselves making bigger losses and going bust?  what then....?

That is a possibility as well but I think both the PS4 and NeXbox will be just fine in the graphics and power department.  No they wont be as powerful as PC's but they dont need to be either.  People want consoles to be a good price and Nvidia will make people charge an arm and a leg.  I love Nvidia, dont get me wrong.  I buy Nvidia for my computer but when it comes to consoles people are looking for good prices.  Also take into consideration developers will be devloping games with those specs in mind which will help power improve in games after launch as they learn more about the hardware.

That wasnt really my point.

The guy from NVidia is actually saying there wasn't enough margin for them. Thats fine, its a business decision.

It worries me a little that AMD, already struggling, would go in cheap to win a contract that may backfire if they have gone too cheap.  If they vanish what the hell happens then?

Get Samsung to buy the rights to making the chips in the AMD closing down sale and they make the chips



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

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Alby_da_Wolf on 26 March 2013
Machiavellian said:

[...]

Actually the benifit is not that great.  Its actually the mobil scene which is way bigger than chasing the console market.  This is the area that Nvidia is putting all of their bandwidth because tablets and smartphones pretty much blow away the install base between a console and PC.  Look at it this way, it took SOny and MS over 7 years combined to reach over 140 million units while that could be reach within a month if you combine phones and tablets.

No big advantage will be gained on the PC because developers program to an API not a GPU.  The fact remains that AMD has to show an actual profit from selling to the console makers and I am sure if there was any real profit to be gained, Nvidia would be there.  The fact is, AMD will be fighting with the console makers tooth and nail to make a profit while the console makers will be shopping their designs to the lowest bidder

About economies of scale, I was meaning HW design and production ones, as PS4 and XB720 APUs are basically standard AMD APUs with some proprietary Sony or MS bits added, then there is the additional benefit of helping launching the new Jaguar lightweight cores.
About SW, consoles provide, unlike PC, large uniform HW power user bases, this is what I mean about those two APUs becoming a widespread reference platform, more for average games HW requirements, not about providing significant programming advantages, but about giving PC users more uniform average requirements: this won't change power gamers' habits, but can reassure more mainstream and casual ones, they'll be able to buy those APUs knowing that with 2-4 more GB RAM and a few hundreds MHz more clock they'll give them on a PC the same performances they'd have on 8th gen consoles.

About console producers shopping components to lowest bidder, phones producers do it too.
About sales volumes: but components for phones are sold at a fraction of the price of PC and consoles ones. Moreover, console components are the same, possibly shrunk during their life, for 5 or more years, while smartphone components become obsolete at very fast rate, just like PC ones.


Finally, NVidia situation is different from AMD one: on GPUs AMD and NVidia compete quite on even ground, but on CPUs AMD is often breathlessly chasing Intel, so a stable HW platform with longer shelf life will give it some rest that NVidia instead, not having to compete with a giant like Intel on a difficult market like PC CPUs, doesn't need.

So NVidia can be right, PS4 isn't probably worth the cost for it, but the same doesn't apply to AMD.



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