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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo's unrealistic pricing for old-school platformers et al.

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TruckOSaurus on 05 February 2013

While you're allowed to have your opinion. It is based on very flawed logic.

- You compare console gaming sales to mobile gaming sales when they're two very different beast.
- You bring in things in the argument that have little to no relevance on the subject (like League of Legends' appeal)
- You make a false correlation between a product's value and the development cost of that product.
- Your proposed price points would lower Nintendo's revenue not increase it.



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happydolphin on 05 February 2013
TruckOSaurus said:
While you're allowed to have your opinion. It is based on very flawed logic.

- You compare console gaming sales to mobile gaming sales when they're two very different beast.
- You bring in things in the argument that have little to no relevance on the subject (like League of Legends' appeal)
- You make a false correlation between a product's value and the development cost of that product.
- Your proposed price points would lower Nintendo's revenue not increase it.

1) They each communicate something, and that information is what I'm using to build my opinion. I'm not sure who decided that the two couldn't be compared...

2) LoL's appeal has much relevance to the subject, and I've already explained that in the thread. You only read the first page so I understand, but that explains it.

3) It's not a false correlation. They are related it just depends to what degree.

4) I explained how they could, given the constaints on the total HW they are able to push (currently capped at 150m units), reduce their prices while increasing their revenue (e.g. by making shorter but more numerous games).

So it is not my fault if you are simply ignoring the points I'm making.



happydolphin on 05 February 2013
RolStoppable said:

It takes a subject worth discussing to have a decent conversation. Out of all the games available in the market, you pick the one series that is holding its MSRP for the longest amount of time. You have it completely backwards. Look at this:

A game that was released in 2006 was still rocking the charts in 2012 at its initial MSRP. The NSMB series is the last series any reasonable person would propose a price drop for.

What you have been saying in this thread has been nonsensical in the beginning and it still is nonsensical. You have the nerve to claim that NSMB games need to drop in price to stay competitive when these games are kicking the asses of pretty much everything else in this industry. The only games that can compete with the NSMB series are other Nintendo IPs like Mario Kart.

You know, if I were to tell you just 2 years ago that the sequel to Brain Age and Nintendogs would bomb, you would have laughed in my face...



Screamapillar on 06 February 2013
happydolphin said:

TruckOSaurus said:

 

If you go to the movies, you'll the same price for any movie, no matter if it's a big budget Hollywood production or a small indie movie. 

If you go see the indie movie, do you feel robbed? No. If the movie is enjoyable, you'll come out of the theater satisfied.

 

It's the same argument as Nikkom gave me. GTAIV should be priced 150$? They can't do that, at least I don't think it would work, just like I don't think 50$ will work for NSMB in the near future. No more novelty, and much higher competition nowadays.

7$, especially for a rental, I consider reasonable. I rarely go to the cinema and rarely feel not robbed, especially not with 3D. You guys may see it as value, I don't. An outing to the cinema is a luxury I only consider worthwhile if the movie is top-notch. Example: Skyfall.

You realize, don't you, that had everyone had that opinion when the first James Bond was released there never would have been a 007 movie series?  Only buying tickets to the biggest blockbusters, only paying full price for the most advanced AAA games?  If everyone did that there would never be a new IP or new movie franchises.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Screamapillar on 06 February 2013
Cyborg13B said:
Anyway my opinion on the subject of the topic. Considering that some companies invest 30 times more money/resources into developing games then Nintendo does for many of those titles you listed (which do debut at $49.99), then yes, it is a massively bad deal.

I.e. each of those games only costs Nintendo $1 million to make. Let's say a developer makes $70 K at Nintendo - $1 million is 14 personnel working for 1 year - which is exactly the size of the teams that makes those games.

As opposed to the $30 million games which take 3 years to make, and have 140 staff working on them.


Okay, you're not actually trying to pass all of that off as real figures, are you? 



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

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milkyjoe on 06 February 2013

If this is all based on the fact that the recent games aren't matching the sales curve of NSMBWii then I think I might have to go bang my head against a wall.

NSMBWii was the perfect game at the perfect time. It was the first 2D Mario game on a Nintendo home console in nearly two decades, released when the Wii was still close to its peak, and it coincided with the first official price cut the console received, all of which combined to drive record breaking sales for the year end period.

A game launching outside of a holiday period, on a handheld that still hasn't hit its peak, and a game launching with a console would never, ever be able to match that performance.

NSMBU has a 59% attach rate by VGC numbers, or a 66% attach rate by Nintendo shipment numbers. That's without any bundling, and I'd say that's pretty impressive. If you're going to respond by saying it's an anomaly helped by a low userbase, then I'd ask you why doesn't the Vita, which also has a low userbase, have anything with an attach rate higher than 21%?

I'd honestly say, it seems like instead of doing the usual thing of analysing the data to help you come to a conclusion, you've come to a conclusion and then tried to make the data fit.



VGChartz

happydolphin on 06 February 2013
milkyjoe said:
If this is all based on the fact that the recent games aren't matching the sales curve of NSMBWii then I think I might have to go bang my head against a wall.

NSMBWii was the perfect game at the perfect time. It was the first 2D Mario game on a Nintendo home console in nearly two decades, released when the Wii was still close to its peak, and it coincided with the first official price cut the console received, all of which combined to drive record breaking sales for the year end period.

A game launching outside of a holiday period, on a handheld that still hasn't hit its peak, and a game launching with a console would never, ever be able to match that performance.

NSMBU has a 59% attach rate by VGC numbers, or a 66% attach rate by Nintendo shipment numbers. That's without any bundling, and I'd say that's pretty impressive. If you're going to respond by saying it's an anomaly helped by a low userbase, then I'd ask you why doesn't the Vita, which also has a low userbase, have anything with an attach rate higher than 21%?

I'd honestly say, it seems like instead of doing the usual thing of analysing the data to help you come to a conclusion, you've come to a conclusion and then tried to make the data fit.

If I'm not mistaken Golden Abyss had a 50% attach rate during the launch window here in the US.

Other than that I understand that the Wii was the right game at the right time but doesn't that kind of support my point, that the times are changing and that NSMB at the price it's at may not be the answer in the future and that there is a risk of meeting a similar fate to Nintendogs and Brain Age?

RolStoppable said:

If by "bomb" you mean a big decrease in sales, rather than unprofitable games, then no. There is no fictional universe or character tied to these games, so they couldn't have the same longevity and staying power as games that do have these things. On top of that Nintendo made sure that the 3DS would not attract these types of consumers.

Your problem is that you oversimplify the categorisation of video games. Since you've decided that 2D platformers are not hardcore games, they have to be casual games. Building on this logic, since casual games like Nintendogs are declining, you figure that the same applies to everything that falls under your label of "casual games". Therefore, NSMB and other 2D platformers are in big trouble and their demise is inevitable, if Nintendo doesn't take any measures.

You still refuse to address the sales data, instead you try to compare 2D platformers to anything that might support your argument. But the first thing you need to look at in such a discussion is direct data, so the state of the NSMB series has to be judged by the sales of the NSMB series. Not Angry Birds, not Limbo, not League of Legends, not Nintendogs.

NSMB2 is keeping pace with NSMB in the USA and Europe despite an increase in price. So what is the problem? There is none, unless you artificially create one. NSMB2 has fallen behind its predecessor in Japan, but it's still going to be among the best selling games of all time in this country. Therefore, you still cannot make the argument that the NSMB series is in trouble without implying that virtually every video game series in existence is in trouble.

If you reply to this post, don't sidestep the discussion again. Talk about the sales of 2D platformers, because the subject is sales of 2D platformers. Also consider why the games you attack the most are the same games that are able to keep their MSRP for the longest time and why virtually every non-Nintendo game doesn't manage to go one year without an official price drop. Ask yourself why Nintendo's 2D platformers don't need to drop in price while the vast majority of other games needs to.

Now you're using non-sales information to judge the future performance of Nintendogs and Brain Age, when earlier you were saying that it's all subjective... Anyways I don't do that so I can understand your point, yet the fictional worlds in NSMB are not being exploited like they are in the 3D Mario series.

From a Castle to a Sunshine plaza to a  Galaxy setting, the 3D Mario series is in constant evolution, much like Angry Birds, then Angry Birds Space, etc. etc. I don't see that happening for NSMB in the way it's being handled. It's always more of the same. So the argument applies to both Nintendogs and NSMB.

An exception to this is Animal Crossing, which seems to have some few improvements here and there but only has some updates between versions, yet people still buy it because it is highly addictive and have an online community aspect to it.

NSMB2 is to be compares with all the NSMB, not just the one on DS. As such the trend from NSMBW is downward. Also, though it will still beat the other games, like I said earlier Nintendo's forecasts are based on expectations of the series against itself, and as such they downward performance of the series is going to hurt them more and more.

My discussion is regarding all games that are easy to make, that are retro or in the Free to Play or very affordable offerings (1-15$) games, so you don't set the rules in my thread. It's a fair comparison and you have yet to give a valid reason why the comparison is not acceptable other than saying "it is not acceptable".

Screamapillar said:

You realize, don't you, that had everyone had that opinion when the first James Bond was released there never would have been a 007 movie series?  Only buying tickets to the biggest blockbusters, only paying full price for the most advanced AAA games?  If everyone did that there would never be a new IP or new movie franchises.

I'm not sure that's how startups work in the movie business. I also watch movies outside of the theaters, and some new IPs don't even make it to thet cinema. Think outside the box, think real.



milkyjoe on 06 February 2013
happydolphin said:
milkyjoe said:
If this is all based on the fact that the recent games aren't matching the sales curve of NSMBWii then I think I might have to go bang my head against a wall.

NSMBWii was the perfect game at the perfect time. It was the first 2D Mario game on a Nintendo home console in nearly two decades, released when the Wii was still close to its peak, and it coincided with the first official price cut the console received, all of which combined to drive record breaking sales for the year end period.

A game launching outside of a holiday period, on a handheld that still hasn't hit its peak, and a game launching with a console would never, ever be able to match that performance.

NSMBU has a 59% attach rate by VGC numbers, or a 66% attach rate by Nintendo shipment numbers. That's without any bundling, and I'd say that's pretty impressive. If you're going to respond by saying it's an anomaly helped by a low userbase, then I'd ask you why doesn't the Vita, which also has a low userbase, have anything with an attach rate higher than 21%?

I'd honestly say, it seems like instead of doing the usual thing of analysing the data to help you come to a conclusion, you've come to a conclusion and then tried to make the data fit.

If I'm not mistaken Golden Abyss had a 50% attach rate during the launch window here in the US.

Other than that I understand that the Wii was the right game at the right time but doesn't that kind of support my point, that the times are changing and that NSMB at the price it's at may not be the answer in the future and that there is a risk of meeting a similar fate to Nintendogs and Brain Age?

Have you stopped to consider that it's entirely possible and entirely natural for something like Nintendogs to be a one hit wonder? Meaning that it's not necessarily the kind of game that could see massively successful sequels for decades to come? And that if that is the case, it doesn't automatically mean there's any correlation to the 2D Mario series.

Think about what could be added to a 2D Mario game. New worlds, new levels, new characters (friends or enemies), new powerups, new modes, new music, better graphics. Now think what could be added to Nintendogs. A new dog, cats (this is what Nintendo actually added)... When you think about it, Nintendogs is a modern Tamagotchi, which was a craze for all of five minutes. New Tamagotchi's didn't help to sustain initial sales levels.

One franchise declining doesn't have to lead to all franchises declining, especially when they aren't even in the same genre. The problem they have is finding another new franchise that can see such huge success to suplement their games that are capable of having sustained success, 2D Mario being one of them.

RolStoppable said:
milkyjoe said:
If this is all based on the fact that the recent games aren't matching the sales curve of NSMBWii then I think I might have to go bang my head against a wall.

So are you going to do it?

Ouch.



VGChartz

happydolphin on 06 February 2013
milkyjoe said:

Have you stopped to consider that it's entirely possible and entirely natural for something like Nintendogs to be a one hit wonder? Meaning that it's not necessarily the kind of game that could see massively successful sequels for decades to come? And that if that is the case, it doesn't automatically mean there's any correlation to the 2D Mario series.

Think about what could be added to a 2D Mario game. New worlds, new levels, new characters (friends or enemies), new powerups, new modes, new music, better graphics. Now think what could be added to Nintendogs. A new dog, cats (this is what Nintendo actually added)... When you think about it, Nintendogs is a modern Tamagotchi, which was a craze for all of five minutes. New Tamagotchi's didn't help to sustain initial sales levels.

One franchise declining doesn't have to lead to all franchises declining, especially when they aren't even in the same genre. The problem they have is finding another new franchise that can see such huge success to suplement their games that are capable of having sustained success, 2D Mario being one of them.

Here, I see Pokemon being able to sustain its sales because it has a community component (sharing and battling Pokemon). It is also highly addictive. Does NSMB have that quality? What variety have they truly been offering? A few new power-ups but it's a lot of been there, done that.

I mean, if they Galaxy-ized NSMB I'd say "Hey! There's evolution and revitilization to the brand". But as it is, though Nintendogs is in a different genre, the lack of newness is similar. On the flip-side, Brain Age could easily have new challenges that attract consumers, just like Mario could have new levels, power ups, etc. etc., yet it failed to succeed. It is not in the realm of the impossible for NSMB, the ingredients are all there for the same downward trend.



Spazzy_D on 06 February 2013
happydolphin said:
milkyjoe said:

Have you stopped to consider that it's entirely possible and entirely natural for something like Nintendogs to be a one hit wonder? Meaning that it's not necessarily the kind of game that could see massively successful sequels for decades to come? And that if that is the case, it doesn't automatically mean there's any correlation to the 2D Mario series.

Think about what could be added to a 2D Mario game. New worlds, new levels, new characters (friends or enemies), new powerups, new modes, new music, better graphics. Now think what could be added to Nintendogs. A new dog, cats (this is what Nintendo actually added)... When you think about it, Nintendogs is a modern Tamagotchi, which was a craze for all of five minutes. New Tamagotchi's didn't help to sustain initial sales levels.

One franchise declining doesn't have to lead to all franchises declining, especially when they aren't even in the same genre. The problem they have is finding another new franchise that can see such huge success to suplement their games that are capable of having sustained success, 2D Mario being one of them.

Here, I see Pokemon being able to sustain its sales because it has a community component (sharing and battling Pokemon). It is also highly addictive. Does NSMB have that quality? What variety have they truly been offering? A few new power-ups but it's a lot of been there, done that.

I mean, if they Galaxy-ized NSMB I'd say "Hey! There's evolution and revitilization to the brand". But as it is, though Nintendogs is in a different genre, the lack of newness is similar. On the flip-side, Brain Age could easily have new challenges that attract consumers, just like Mario could have new levels, power ups, etc. etc., yet it failed to succeed. It is not in the realm of the impossible for NSMB, the ingredients are all there for the same downward trend.

2D Mario isn't a flash in the pan one hit wonder.  It has shown it's longevity for almost 30 years.  30 years!  It is not a "casual" series, or a touch generation title like the two you mentioned.  You keep making comparisons that make no sense to anyone but yourself to make your point.