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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The Official Legend of Zelda Thread: Echoes of Wisdom Sells 2.58 Million Units

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Are you planning to buy Echoes of Wisdom?

I already pre-ordered 7 46.67%
 
Picking it up soon 4 26.67%
 
Waiting for a sale 2 13.33%
 
No, it's not for me 2 13.33%
 
Total:15
OTBWY said:
S.Peelman said:

Look what I got my hands on lately all complete and in near perfect condition.

You Zelda fans can be jealous now.

 

Not at all.

Nice.



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RolStoppable said:
Roar_Of_War said:

So more, smaller-like Hyrule Castle-type dungeons? Yeah, sounds good. I’m fine with that then, as long as they only replace the divine beasts and not the shrines necessarily. 

I sort of look at divine beasts as a new style of dungeon I suppose, but I guess they’re moreso like larger shrines with a boss, gimmick and larger scale reward than dungeons. Which I like in its own right, but they could just fit that into somewhat larger shrines without the bosses (maybe) and make more dungeons like Hyrule Castle. I can dig that.  

But my main point is, the focus needs to be on the overworld first. I don’t want so many large dungeons that take away from getting back to the overworld quickly. I want exploration and engaging traversial to mix in with my dungeon content at a good pace, without constantly being in hour-long dungeons. Let me get back to the overworld quickly, and make up for it with short and sweet smaller scale shrines, sidequests, shrine quests or whatever else is out there

Smaller and spread out should stay. That’s something I never knew I needed until BOTW showed me I needed it, and I don’t want to go back. 

Your first post made it sound like exploring in BOTW has no purpose because it lacks dungeons. Like em or not, the divine beasts still give purpose. So do memories. And the shrines. And especially your own example, Hyrule Castle. Adding more smaller Hyrule Castle-type dungeons is fine, but its not like that’s the only purpose. 

The shrines are fine because they are short. The divine beasts, however, are the low point of BotW. They are huge elaborate puzzles and those are really the main reason why people stop playing a Zelda game; for Ocarina of Time the Water Temple in particular is often cited as a problem, and the Water Temple is a convoluted elaborate puzzle. The style of the divine beasts should be done away with and be replaced with monster-infested dungeons of a similar size as the divine beasts were.

The size and freedom of the BotW overworld is great, but all the exploring and stocking up on good equipment and items would be meaningless without Hyrule Castle. Heck, some players complained that they were too overpowered when they finally visited Hyrule Castle. Dungeons throughout the game - say, if every region has a tower, every region should also have one dungeon - would serve as checks that the player is on the right track with building up their equipment and provide diversity to the exploration of the overworld and the puzzle-solving in shrines. 30-45 minutes long dungeons for every 5-10 hours of exploring wouldn't make dungeon time take over.

The divine beasts still serve as ‘checks’ throughout the game. Especially since they prepare you for Hyrule Castle. Its all connected, granting you more abilities, taking out one of the bosses earlier, seeing how strong you are at the current point compared to the bosses. And weakening Ganon, of course

Hyrule Castle may be the final main area and the primary reason to explore, but the DBs are as well and connect directly to Hyrule Castle to begin with. What you want is what BOTW already does, just with dungeons you prefer or, rather, what you would call ‘actual dungeons’.

I don’t recall anyone quitting BOTW over a divine beast because 

1) They’re short

2) They’re not frustrating

3) You can skip them if you want to anyway

Past games, I tend to hear people getting stuck and quitting in massive, frustrating dungeons like the Water Temple. I think this would happen less with shorter dungeons and I believe BOTW has proven that. Certainly helps that you can skip them, too.

45 minutes is too long and padded. More of them + 30 minutes max seems like a better compromise. 



irstupid said:

Did you miss the entire OPTIONAL part.

The giant dungeons would not be needed at all. You could skip them. 

Think of them like the Optional Tomb's in the new Tomb Raider games. 

There for people that like them, optional for those that are too dumb to figure them out or don't wnat to do them.

If too many people skip them they become clutter in the games much like many of the menu items in prior games had little use outside of a few and it's not a case of players being dumb to figure them out many players just either don't like them or find them overall not that enjoyable being an option means they have to add to the game for the main bulk of players still and if people are put off by the option then it has to be scaled back or removed.



HoloDust said:
Less mass-market open world design, more dungeons intertwined into the world. No easy climbing, Link is neither spider nor ant - I find BotW so broken cause of it, that when you eventually get to Hyrule Castle it's piss easy to just skip most of it.
At this point I'd much rather have someone like From making next game, I don't have much faith in Nintendo when it comes to Zelda anymore.

personally, I can't imagine going back to the old style anymore.  Even Skyrim is annoying to me with the lack of freedom to climb...tho Link is arguably toooo good at climbing. It migt be the first 3D game I have played where I don't feel like my character always gets unfairly stuck on random objects and invisible walls.



RolStoppable said:
Roar_Of_War said:

So more, smaller-like Hyrule Castle-type dungeons? Yeah, sounds good. I’m fine with that then, as long as they only replace the divine beasts and not the shrines necessarily. 

I sort of look at divine beasts as a new style of dungeon I suppose, but I guess they’re moreso like larger shrines with a boss, gimmick and larger scale reward than dungeons. Which I like in its own right, but they could just fit that into somewhat larger shrines without the bosses (maybe) and make more dungeons like Hyrule Castle. I can dig that.  

But my main point is, the focus needs to be on the overworld first. I don’t want so many large dungeons that take away from getting back to the overworld quickly. I want exploration and engaging traversial to mix in with my dungeon content at a good pace, without constantly being in hour-long dungeons. Let me get back to the overworld quickly, and make up for it with short and sweet smaller scale shrines, sidequests, shrine quests or whatever else is out there

Smaller and spread out should stay. That’s something I never knew I needed until BOTW showed me I needed it, and I don’t want to go back. 

Your first post made it sound like exploring in BOTW has no purpose because it lacks dungeons. Like em or not, the divine beasts still give purpose. So do memories. And the shrines. And especially your own example, Hyrule Castle. Adding more smaller Hyrule Castle-type dungeons is fine, but its not like that’s the only purpose. 

The shrines are fine because they are short. The divine beasts, however, are the low point of BotW. They are huge elaborate puzzles and those are really the main reason why people stop playing a Zelda game; for Ocarina of Time the Water Temple in particular is often cited as a problem, and the Water Temple is a convoluted elaborate puzzle. The style of the divine beasts should be done away with and be replaced with monster-infested dungeons of a similar size as the divine beasts were.

The size and freedom of the BotW overworld is great, but all the exploring and stocking up on good equipment and items would be meaningless without Hyrule Castle. Heck, some players complained that they were too overpowered when they finally visited Hyrule Castle. Dungeons throughout the game - say, if every region has a tower, every region should also have one dungeon - would serve as checks that the player is on the right track with building up their equipment and provide diversity to the exploration of the overworld and the puzzle-solving in shrines. 30-45 minutes long dungeons for every 5-10 hours of exploring wouldn't make dungeon time take over.

I was about to call you a something or other, yet then I saw the name. Sure, Zelda without puzzles, turn it into TR reboot. Make the puzzles optional and increase the kill count. Mindless killing is much better than figuring something out :)

Imo BotW needed more and longer dungeons and more puzzle shrines instead of the same challenge fights repeated over the map. The thing I never really enjoyed about Zelda games are the scripted boss fights with start from scratch if you fail in stage 3. 

Longer dungeons give you a break from the over world which will feel nice to return to again afterwards and catch up on what's happened outside. With shrines you pop in and out, not much more than checking off the next item on a list. Sure a lot of them were fun, and I did spend 170 hours on BotW. (Never used fast travel, most of it spend exploring and running) I was however a bit disappointed with the end. Just like in Windwaker I felt it still needed a meaty dungeon at the end, not just the old repeat of boss fights. I did explore Hyrule castle early though and when I finally got back to it I simply ran to the boss and the game was done...



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couchmonkey said:
HoloDust said:
Less mass-market open world design, more dungeons intertwined into the world. No easy climbing, Link is neither spider nor ant - I find BotW so broken cause of it, that when you eventually get to Hyrule Castle it's piss easy to just skip most of it.
At this point I'd much rather have someone like From making next game, I don't have much faith in Nintendo when it comes to Zelda anymore.

personally, I can't imagine going back to the old style anymore.  Even Skyrim is annoying to me with the lack of freedom to climb...tho Link is arguably toooo good at climbing. It migt be the first 3D game I have played where I don't feel like my character always gets unfairly stuck on random objects and invisible walls.

Yeah, lot of games have problems with vertical traversal - but for me BotW is quite broken due to how easy is to climb anything.
Climbing should come at high price, as deliberate and one of defining choices for your character, that takes lot of XP/points, making in turn a lot of other skills not developed so well, as well as not being able to wear heavier armor while climbing - at least that's how it should be implemented in proper RPGs - unfortunately, those are quite rare these days, and are almost exclusively in realm of pen&paper RPGs.

Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion all had skills that governed jumping and climbing, making your character able to go to areas and find paths that would otherwise be inaccessible - which is very point of having those skills in game in the first place.



couchmonkey said:
HoloDust said:
Less mass-market open world design, more dungeons intertwined into the world. No easy climbing, Link is neither spider nor ant - I find BotW so broken cause of it, that when you eventually get to Hyrule Castle it's piss easy to just skip most of it.
At this point I'd much rather have someone like From making next game, I don't have much faith in Nintendo when it comes to Zelda anymore.

personally, I can't imagine going back to the old style anymore.  Even Skyrim is annoying to me with the lack of freedom to climb...tho Link is arguably toooo good at climbing. It migt be the first 3D game I have played where I don't feel like my character always gets unfairly stuck on random objects and invisible walls.

Yes very much so. Was recently playing Yonder the Cloud Caching Chronicles and man did I notice how much I wanted to be able to do stuff like climb and the paraglide. Invisible walls, 2 foot ledges you can't go up. Forced paths, ect. It really takes the open out of open world.

They somehow managed to make BotW completely open world, where you can go anywhere anytime and yet somehow never feel OP or underleveled at the same time. Getting certain abilities made certain areas become more skippable per say, but the way they made the world, you found yourself going back to places or not wanting to skip areas anyway.



irstupid said:
couchmonkey said:

personally, I can't imagine going back to the old style anymore.  Even Skyrim is annoying to me with the lack of freedom to climb...tho Link is arguably toooo good at climbing. It migt be the first 3D game I have played where I don't feel like my character always gets unfairly stuck on random objects and invisible walls.

Yes very much so. Was recently playing Yonder the Cloud Caching Chronicles and man did I notice how much I wanted to be able to do stuff like climb and the paraglide. Invisible walls, 2 foot ledges you can't go up. Forced paths, ect. It really takes the open out of open world.

They somehow managed to make BotW completely open world, where you can go anywhere anytime and yet somehow never feel OP or underleveled at the same time. Getting certain abilities made certain areas become more skippable per say, but the way they made the world, you found yourself going back to places or not wanting to skip areas anyway.

Nintendo has shown mastery over many genres, but its accomplishment with BotW might be its most impressive. On its first try with a modern open-world game, it basically set the new standard. 



Veknoid_Outcast said:

Nintendo has shown mastery over many genres, but its accomplishment with BotW might be its most impressive. On its first try with a modern open-world game, it basically set the new standard. 

What standarad would that be?



HoloDust said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:

Nintendo has shown mastery over many genres, but its accomplishment with BotW might be its most impressive. On its first try with a modern open-world game, it basically set the new standard. 

What standarad would that be?

Oh man, I'm sorry for the delay. This week has been crazy.

I'd say BotW set a benchmark for open-world games in terms of physical/mechanical/chemical freedom, locomotion options, and emergent gameplay.