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Forums - General - Why do some believe these characteristics of a Creator?

Jay520 said:

1. I'm not sure what you mean here. I never said a creator wouldn't be worthy of praise.

2. I'm not making the argument that the universe is more powerful than the a creator. I'm not saying that there's anything at all more powerful than a Creator. It's possible that there's nothing that exists which is stronger than a Creator, but does that mean the Creator is all-powerful? Not necessarily, depending on your definition of "all-powerful."

If your definition of "all-powerful" is being more powerful than anything that exists, then I wouldn't argue against it (frankly because I'm not interested in assuming the "power" of the universe). However, if your definition of "all-powerful" is having the ability to create anything, then we cannot say for sure whether a Creator follows such a definition. We cannot know whether or not the Creator has the ability to create things that he hasn't yet created. It's possible that he had the ability, but simply decided not to create something. But it's also possible that he lacked the ability, and thus could not create that very same thing.

3. What do you mean "it all makes sense"? 

1. I didn't say you did. I was just answering your question. But my 2 is a better answer than my 1 imho.

2. I wasn't saying you were saying that. Again, I was answering your question. I was explaining that if a being could outgrow its creator, something in the universe allowed him that, and as such that law of the universe needed to be guided by a source. Therefore, there must have been a greater creator. Meaning that an almighty creator is required for the origins to work.

That's what I mean by it all makes sense. I mean it all holds together like a building.

My def of all-powerful is, among other things, that there is nothing more powerful than he, because if so, he would not be all powerful.



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timmah said:

You bring up some commonly used, but still interesting paradoxes on the subject. For the sake of discussion, I hope you find some of my thoughts on these subjects interesting.

1. You're basically arguing that there is no possibility of anything being all powerful, all-knowing, or infinite. This argument is like asking 'can anything be larger than infinity', then using the answer to that question to disprove the concept of infinity. It's a self-defeating argument based solely on the inability for finite beings to fully comprehend the concept of 'infinity', or in this case 'all-powerful'.

2. This would go back to the very complex and deep debate on free will and love. If this creator chose to give humanity free will, and the pain and suffering of humanity is due to misuse of this free will, the creator would be contradicting the very law of the free will he gave us by eliminating that suffering (as he would have to force us to act in a certain way). Without free will, it is impossible for love to exist. A robot that is hard coded to act in exactly the way it is created cannot love somebody and could not inspire reciprocal love. Without the potential for darkness, there is no such thing as light. Without the potential for hate, what is love? Without the potential for cold, what is warmth?


1. That doesn't do a good job of proving that something all-powerful, all-knowing, or infinite can exist. Infinity is a concept which doesn't describe any actual entities. So no, we have no valid reason to believe infinity exists in the "real" world (unless you can give some examples). So if anything, I think your infinity analogy decreases the likelihood of a Creator, or at least proves He's just a concept.

2. This leads to a few questions.

How would you explain natural, unnecessary “evil” especially when it harms newborns who can't even comprehend love or hate? It’s not like nature itself is exercising free will; the Creator himself is the one causing this pain and suffering. The situation is even worse when you consider the fact that these natural disasters are completely unnecessary; like you said, humans already exercise their free will to put evil into the world. If evil will exist regardless, then what is the point of the Creator causing this suffering?

Also, I don’t think hatred is necessary for love. When it comes to love & hate, there is a huge neutral position where neither hate nor love exists. Certain things just don’t give off a degree of love/hate. I think even without hate, love would be appreciated. The neutral situations would be unfulfilling enough that love would still be highly valuable. This is different from something like hot and cold. When it comes to temperature, there is no neutral zone; everything has a certain degree of hotness and coldness.

But let’s assume that hatred is necessary for love. A hate-free civilization wouldn’t work because love is only valued as it contrasts with hate. Also, a free-will & hate-free civilization is also impossible (otherwise, the Creator would have created such a civilization). If this is true, then that means the Creator planned for there to be hate.  But this contradicts the popular notion that the Creator planned for humanity to live completely in harmony and love. So which is it? Did the creator plan for a hatred-free civilization or a hatred-filled civilization?



happydolphin said:

The fact that it's already determined doesn't change the fact that it's a choice.

Steps

0) God turns off omniscience.

1) God makes me.

2) God turns on omniscience.

 

Me can chooose, God can know. Problem solved.

This goes against the common notion that the Creator is timeless and unchanged. God today is the same is He was 10 million years ago, etc. 



happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

and what does this have to do with turning off knowledge? Oh right, not a damn thing. 

You cannot turn off what you know. I cannot believe you're arguing that you can. I challenge you to turn off your knowledge of English. Good luck.

I can, in a moment, turn off certain thoughts or concerns. I have that power.

If I have that power, I wouldn't be too surprised if God did too.


thoughts =/= knowledge. You may be able to stop thinking about something (but even that's a stretch), but it is not possible to consciously erase pieces of  your knowledge.



Interesting thread. Tagging for later.



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timmah said:

There you go again with (not so) veiled attacks on my intellect, you keep it classy. By the way, your 'up' is actually 'down' to people in China :P.

It's frustrating when you keep returning to time doesn't apply, then when I say time isn't relevant you say logic doesn't apply. Logic applies to anything and everything. It's two concepts that are contradictory to each other. Those being omniscience and free will.

Free will implies choice and nondeterminism. This isn't debatable. This is by definition.

Omniscience implies determinism (since nothing is unknown).

Nondeterminism != determinism

Simple, no other aspects need be considered at all. Time, Space, God, Human, does not matter. It is simply logic based purely on definition.



Jay520 said:

This goes against the common notion that the Creator is timeless and unchanged. God today is the same is He was 10 million years ago, etc. 

His divine nature doesn't change, simply his abilities are limited for a time/reason.

An example from Christianity is Christ, when he took the form of a man, he was able to suffer pain, which is not something Holy God is normally understood to do. But he limited his divinity for a moment. It doesn't change the fact that he could've broken free from that form at any moment, but he chose not to do so, because he had salvation in mind. (Philippians 2:1-11 as an example of this)

The key word here is chose. He's God after all. If we can limit our abilities for a moment, for a reason (sometimes love), then with even greater reason so could he.

 

Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:

I can, in a moment, turn off certain thoughts or concerns. I have that power.

If I have that power, I wouldn't be too surprised if God did too.

thoughts =/= knowledge. You may be able to stop thinking about something (but even that's a stretch), but it is not possible to consciously erase pieces of  your knowledge.

 

My thoughts activate my knowledge. Though I may know something, I can control my thoughts so as to remove that concern for another thought, at a specific moment.

I may know that my best friend cheated on me, but I can put the thought that reminds me of that aside so I can move on and continue to love them.

 



happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:

This goes against the common notion that the Creator is timeless and unchanged. God today is the same is He was 10 million years ago, etc. 

His divine nature doesn't change, simply his abilities are limited for a time/reason.

An example from Christianity is Christ, when he took the form of a man, he was able to suffer pain, which is not something Holy God is normally understood to do. But he limited his divinity for a moment. It doesn't change the fact that he could've broken free from that form at any moment, but he chose not to do so, because he had salvation in mind. (Philippians 2:1-11 as an example of this)

The key word here is chose.



Omniscience is a part of God's divine nature.

Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:

This goes against the common notion that the Creator is timeless and unchanged. God today is the same is He was 10 million years ago, etc. 

His divine nature doesn't change, simply his abilities are limited for a time/reason.

An example from Christianity is Christ, when he took the form of a man, he was able to suffer pain, which is not something Holy God is normally understood to do. But he limited his divinity for a moment. It doesn't change the fact that he could've broken free from that form at any moment, but he chose not to do so, because he had salvation in mind. (Philippians 2:1-11 as an example of this)

The key word here is chose.



Omniscience is a part of God's divine nature.

And I'm saying that putting his thoughts to rest, for a moment, does not change that. He knows all things, but he doesn't consider idea A or B when making a specific decision if his will is not to think about it.

I edited my post, the example I gave should help.

You can give me easy replies, but they will never answer your questions....



happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:

This goes against the common notion that the Creator is timeless and unchanged. God today is the same is He was 10 million years ago, etc. 

His divine nature doesn't change, simply his abilities are limited for a time/reason.

An example from Christianity is Christ, when he took the form of a man, he was able to suffer pain, which is not something Holy God is normally understood to do. But he limited his divinity for a moment. It doesn't change the fact that he could've broken free from that form at any moment, but he chose not to do so, because he had salvation in mind. (Philippians 2:1-11 as an example of this)

The key word here is chose. He's God after all. If we can limit our abilities for a moment, for a reason (sometimes love), then with even greater reason so could he.

 

Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:

I can, in a moment, turn off certain thoughts or concerns. I have that power.

If I have that power, I wouldn't be too surprised if God did too.

thoughts =/= knowledge. You may be able to stop thinking about something (but even that's a stretch), but it is not possible to consciously erase pieces of  your knowledge.

My thoughts activate my knowledge. Though I may know something, I can control my thoughts so as to remove that concern for another though, at a specific moment.

I may know that my best friend cheated on me, but I can put the thought that reminds me of that aside so I can move on and continue to love them.



Activating knowledge =/= having knowledge. Just because you don't think of something you know, that doesn't mean you don't know it anymore.

Just because you stop thinking of your friend cheating doesn't mean you'll forget it. The knowledge will be there for the near future and you can not instantly rid yourself of the knowledge.