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Forums - Politics - Should prisoners get paid minimum wage for jobs done in prison?

Short answer yes, they should work and get paid.



I was walking down along the street and I heard this voice saying, "Good evening, Mr. Dowd." Well, I turned around and here was this big six-foot rabbit leaning up against a lamp-post. Well, I thought nothing of that because when you've lived in a town as long as I've lived in this one, you get used to the fact that everybody knows your name.

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SamuelRSmith said:
SvennoJ said:

Yes privatization and especially for profit prisons is one step too far.
Treating offenders as a commodity is morally wrong and comes awfully close to the definition of slavery:

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work


So, wait, when individuals operate prisons, it's morally wrong, and close to slavery? But when the state does it, it's A-OK?

It's not who operates the prison but how. In the private prison sector prisoners are treated as a commodity. The difference is, it costs the state money to run prisons, for profit private prisons make money from occupancy. Private prisons are lobying for new and longer sentences to make more money.
If the state puts people behind bars just to have a cheap labor force then it's equally bad.

I'm not saying work is bad for prisoners. But let them do work maintaining the prison, growing food, cooking, cleaning and other things to reduce prison operating costs. Not hire them out to call centers to make a profit.



Mr Khan said:

Privatization encourages profiteering, which encourages the use of prisoners as de facto slaves. If it was on the taxpayer dime, there'd be less incentive to exploit prisoners. It would be wrong if the state does it, and it is wrong that the state allows it to be done under their watch, but if it were wholly the realm of the state, it would be less likely to occur. Or at least if the state exploited prison labor purely for public-works purposes, then the people as a whole would benefit, rather than a few profiteers.


Tell me more about how the state doesn't "profiteer".

How many state employees are on the paybook because of things like the War on Drugs? Police? Prison Wardens? the DEA? How much power has the Government been able to claw in thanks to the WoD? Much of the PATRIOT ACT was expanding powers used against drugs to terrorism.

Besides, forget prison. How am I not already a "de facto slave"? Do I own anything? Can I volunteer to engage in any exchange I want? Am I even allowed to kill myself?



SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:

Privatization encourages profiteering, which encourages the use of prisoners as de facto slaves. If it was on the taxpayer dime, there'd be less incentive to exploit prisoners. It would be wrong if the state does it, and it is wrong that the state allows it to be done under their watch, but if it were wholly the realm of the state, it would be less likely to occur. Or at least if the state exploited prison labor purely for public-works purposes, then the people as a whole would benefit, rather than a few profiteers.


Tell me more about how the state doesn't "profiteer".

How many state employees are on the paybook because of things like the War on Drugs? Police? Prison Wardens? the DEA? How much power has the Government been able to claw in thanks to the WoD? Much of the PATRIOT ACT was expanding powers used against drugs to terrorism.

Besides, forget prison. How am I not already a "de facto slave"? Do I own anything? Can I volunteer to engage in any exchange I want? Am I even allowed to kill myself?

That's not profiteering. Profiteering is about making money on stuff. You're talking about pork. Employees of the state can profiteer off of things like the War on Terror, but the State as a whole draws no revenue from rounding up terrorists or conducting warrantless wiretaps or what have you.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

That's not profiteering. Profiteering is about making money on stuff. You're talking about pork. Employees of the state can profiteer off of things like the War on Terror, but the State as a whole draws no revenue from rounding up terrorists or conducting warrantless wiretaps or what have you.


What's on earth's "the state overall"? Governments, like all other organisations, are just collections of people. Corporations don't profit. States don't profit. The people involved do.



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Mr Khan said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:

Privatization encourages profiteering, which encourages the use of prisoners as de facto slaves. If it was on the taxpayer dime, there'd be less incentive to exploit prisoners. It would be wrong if the state does it, and it is wrong that the state allows it to be done under their watch, but if it were wholly the realm of the state, it would be less likely to occur. Or at least if the state exploited prison labor purely for public-works purposes, then the people as a whole would benefit, rather than a few profiteers.


Tell me more about how the state doesn't "profiteer".

How many state employees are on the paybook because of things like the War on Drugs? Police? Prison Wardens? the DEA? How much power has the Government been able to claw in thanks to the WoD? Much of the PATRIOT ACT was expanding powers used against drugs to terrorism.

Besides, forget prison. How am I not already a "de facto slave"? Do I own anything? Can I volunteer to engage in any exchange I want? Am I even allowed to kill myself?

That's not profiteering. Profiteering is about making money on stuff. You're talking about pork. Employees of the state can profiteer off of things like the War on Terror, but the State as a whole draws no revenue from rounding up terrorists or conducting warrantless wiretaps or what have you.

However doesn't the government essentially profiteer by having prisoners do work for "the public good"?

Having some prisoners clean up trash on a state road vs having some prisoners act as janitors for a private run factory.  Same difference really

 

Really, I think prisoners should be paid minimium wage.  That can be used either for marked up products in the prison system or that can be sent to family members/saved for release.  Of course so should farm employees since they do some hard as hell manual labor.

 

That way they can be used to build a better future when they get out.  Support family members, or buy luxuraries while offsetting the cost of their imprisonment.



Fuck no. British prisons are too cushty and need to be toughened up I like the American system of tough jails. Prisoners should only be paid a pitence for their labour. They owe a debt to society not the other way round.



SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:

That's not profiteering. Profiteering is about making money on stuff. You're talking about pork. Employees of the state can profiteer off of things like the War on Terror, but the State as a whole draws no revenue from rounding up terrorists or conducting warrantless wiretaps or what have you.


What's on earth's "the state overall"? Governments, like all other organisations, are just collections of people. Corporations don't profit. States don't profit. The people involved do.

The state overall is like "the company overall." If you're working for a nonprofit organization that does charitable work, they as a whole draw no revenue from what they do, though you personally profit. So it is with the State, whose only revenue-drawing functions are taxes, fines, interest from sovereign loans, and military weapons sales. Much of what the state does is not about profit.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

The state overall is like "the company overall." If you're working for a nonprofit organization that does charitable work, they as a whole draw no revenue from what they do, though you personally profit. So it is with the State, whose only revenue-drawing functions are taxes, fines, interest from sovereign loans, and military weapons sales. Much of what the state does is not about profit.


And I just said that companies don't profit. People profit. When Microsoft posts "$X" profit, the little piece of paper which is the Microsoft Corporate Charter hasn't gained anything. It's the stockholders and employees. So saying that "the state overall is like the company overall" doesn't really do anything for your argument.

Everything that the state does is about profit. The state is the farmer, and we are the animals. The difference is, I can see the fence, while you're demanding the the chickens get the same amount of land as the cows.



Yes. They should also have to pay for food and rent.