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Forums - Politics Discussion - How to Destroy an Athiests in a argument! (Updated with poll)

 

Who won?

The Athiest 40 70.18%
 
The creationist 17 29.82%
 
Total:57
Dr.Grass said:
JoeTheBro said:
Dr.Grass said:

JoeTheBro said:


I'm a science guy


What does that mean?


I'm related to Bill Nye, and I also love science. Heck I built my first Tesla Coil in 8th grade.


What have you done since then?

LOL since I usually stay on the engineering side of things most of my stuff isn't as cool as determining how the universe works. Right now I'm applying for a couple patents with one of them being in layman's terms a 3D tv without glasses. It's most similar to http://www.holografika.com/ in terms of the result but my solution is roughly 75% cheaper to manufacture. I'm also getting close to patenting a new graphics engine that gets rid of everything we know about cgi and takes a different approach. It is designed for weaker processors such as phones being able to replicate the results of middle ground PC graphics. Everything else is either boring or is still in hiding.



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JoeTheBro said:
Dr.Grass said:
JoeTheBro said:
Dr.Grass said:

JoeTheBro said:

 
I'm a science guy


What does that mean?


I'm related to Bill Nye, and I also love science. Heck I built my first Tesla Coil in 8th grade.


What have you done since then?

LOL since I usually stay on the engineering side of things most of my stuff isn't as cool as determining how the universe works. Right now I'm applying for a couple patents with one of them being in layman's terms a 3D tv without glasses. It's most similar to http://www.holografika.com/ in terms of the result but my solution is roughly 75% cheaper to manufacture. I'm also getting close to patenting a new graphics engine that gets rid of everything we know about cgi and takes a different approach. It is designed for weaker processors such as phones being able to replicate the results of middle ground PC graphics. Everything else is either boring or is still in hiding.

 

All the best to you ;)



Player1x3 said:

  • Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
  • Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
  • Adolf Hitler, Atheist: 15 million dead
  • Vladimir Lenin, Atheist: 5.5 million dead
  • Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
  • Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
  • Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead

          (all in time span of max 70 years)
Vs.

  • Catholic Inqusition: (time span: 500+ years) 20-30.000 dead
  • The Crusades :  (time span:200+ years) 1.5-2 million dead

Atheist dictators killed millions of people over the past century, and caused more death in a much shorter time span than almost any other catastrophe that has happened in the civilized world, and imprisoned  or murdered hundreds of thousands in an effort to eradicate religion itself, because, you know, mass murder is the inevitable result when a community becomes too intolerant of outlandish dogmas and too fond of critical thinking. Oh the irony!


Atheists don't kill people. States do.



dsgrue3 said:
Allfreedom99 said:
It is not some "invisible man" that I would liken the Creator to as if he is some old aged guy with a beard having a good time watching what happens on earth while sitting back eating popcorn. I liken God to a omnipotent being who is also Omnipresent.

Science uses the bases of observation. I would ask the same question of you. Why when you look around you seeing us as complex living organisms, our solar system, air, gravity, the vast deep universe with laws that all work together establishing order do you not see it as an amazing creation by a vastly intelligent Omniscient creator? We are here alive as a product of something.

Products are a result of an intelligent influence. When we look at solar systems, galaxies, our bodies we see order, purpose, and enginuity. How, then can you look at it and say that its all just the reslut of a random happens chance that the coding for everythign we see occuring now was all directly written in the very beginnings of the universe without any intelligent influence whatsover?

That is why in the realm of science it defies logic.


I agree, if there is a God it is an amorphous one. 

Your argument, however, is very wrong. We exist because the conditions for life exist. Not vice versa. We actually know this to be true through evolution. 

The relatively stable condition of our Universe is a settling of an initial event, but there really is no stability. It's an illusion at best, there is mass chaos at an atomic level and even more instability at a quantum level. 

Let me pose question to you. Why, if this was all created by an omniscient being, would there be an expanding Universe? Why would there be a need for anything beyond the solar system itself? Why is there so much wasted space? Why will one day the Sun destroy the very planet we live on? Nothing but questions with not a single answer in religious texts.

The answer is obvious, if there exists a God, it is nature itself. 

I still go further than just to say we exist, because the conditions for life exist. The conditions for life exist because of matter, energy, laws of physics, ect. Those exist due to their establishment through intelligent means without which I do not see the possibility for any form of order to exist whatsoever. I do not see any real possibility for any order whatsoever without an intelligent intervention to set the foundation for it.

To answer your question of course I cannot give you the answer of God since I do not know the mind of God. Nor does any religious text explain full detail a reason for an expanding universe, although even if it did I think you would likely question it.  I see it as a vast expanding universe that is a representation of the Creator's attributes to show how unimaginable He is.

As for a need for anything beyond our solar system He obviously knew that he was investing in very explorative creatures (humans). Ones that would be very intrigued by such a vast expansive space outside our solar system. He knew we would be creatures of discovery. And who is to say we are the only intelligent life that exists. Granted it takes a great deal of factors to be in place for even a small life form to exist on a planet, but there are many possibilities (planets) for all of the factors to come together in just the right way. Its possible we are alone in the universe and for whatever reason the Creator simply chose to only create us and an immense universe for his most intriguing creation (humans) to discover and explore what it entails in one of the ways that show His character to us.

As for our planet's coming destruction, there are still many years to pass by for that to occur. we will likely either have the technology to make other habitable arrangements, We destroy ourselves, or what I see is that our fate simply will be determined before that.

There however is one major point I disagree with in that, "nature is God itself." No, in order to be able to establish all that we observe before us, the ability we have for communication, our thought processes, our emotions...Our Creator does indeed have a character. Just by observation our Creator is not nature itself, but a real true entity with a character and of limitless knowledge. I see no other way for us to exist than for an intelligent being to have brought all of the universe, nature, and life itself into existence.  The thought that we have what we have today just from a beginning set of laws and simple calculations is foolish to say that somehow those set of laws and simple calculations with the means to materialize matter have always existed without any means of intelligence to establish them.




allenmaher said:
"If nothing established the laws of physics then how would they even be laws in the first place? there has to be a catalyst for a law to exist, or else the law would not be able to materialize on its own as a reality."

As a practising earth scientist (university researcher), here are some definitions that might help.

A scientific law describes a set of predictable outcomes that will occur within a range of observed conditions. It has no observable exceptions, however our point of view as humans is limited. Laws are not the holy grail of science, they tend to be black boxes, and useful ones, e.g. Stephan Boltzman, and Weins laws. They do not however explain why or how the observations are predictable.

A Hypothesis is a conjecture supported by some evidence that with further testing may contribute to a working theory that helps to explain an observable phenomenon. These are falsifiable and tested in an attempt to build understanding.

A theory is a robust well tested framework that represents our best understanding of the reasons why of a set of observations is the way it is. This is the objective of science to advance our understanding of things.

The laws of science are not immutable, our understanding and perspective grows with a lot of hard work.

Laws and physical constants are often bandied about in philosophical discussions, and used inappropriately. They are not things that exist, just our tools for describing things that exist.

It's a lot like the René Magritte, painting of a pipe with the subtitle translated as "this is not a pipe". There is no rule book of immutable laws of the universe, just our paintings trying to reflect a better understanding of it.

Yes, we have the ability to understand the realities and processes by which our universe operates. If we have the ability to understand physics, mathematical equations  and therefore that is what has led us to what we know and understand today about how the universe operates then one must address where we obtained the ability for that knowledge.

In the beginning of the universe if one uses evolution as the basis then the calculations in order for our life forms to eventually have the ability to understand our universe and how it operates was surely present. If it wasn't then none of us in our current abilities would be here today. In the Science community's current explanation through mathematical calculations, energy, time, development of matter, ect everything we see now came about. But the very tool of mathematics must take intelligence to understand it. Therefore, the ability for us to have intellect, knowledge and ability to understand the use of mathematics would mean that intelligence must have existed at the start of the universe in order for us to have the ability of thought process today.  Intelligence can't be created by a mathematical process. Intelligence is what allows us to understand the use of mathematics/physics and therefore unlock the processes of our universe.




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Allfreedom99 said:
I still go further than just to say we exist, because the conditions for life exist. The conditions for life exist because of matter, energy, laws of physics, ect. Those exist due to their establishment through intelligent means without which I do not see the possibility for any form of order to exist whatsoever. I do not see any real possibility for any order whatsoever without an intelligent intervention to set the foundation for it.

To answer your question of course I cannot give you the answer of God since I do not know the mind of God. Nor does any religious text explain full detail a reason for an expanding universe, although even if it did I think you would likely question it.  I see it as a vast expanding universe that is a representation of the Creator's attributes to show how unimaginable He is.

As for a need for anything beyond our solar system He obviously knew that he was investing in very explorative creatures (humans). Ones that would be very intrigued by such a vast expansive space outside our solar system. He knew we would be creatures of discovery. And who is to say we are the only intelligent life that exists. Granted it takes a great deal of factors to be in place for even a small life form to exist on a planet, but there are many possibilities (planets) for all of the factors to come together in just the right way. Its possible we are alone in the universe and for whatever reason the Creator simply chose to only create us and an immense universe for his most intriguing creation (humans) to discover and explore what it entails in one of the ways that show His character to us.

As for our planet's coming destruction, there are still many years to pass by for that to occur. we will likely either have the technology to make other habitable arrangements, We destroy ourselves, or what I see is that our fate simply will be determined before that.

There however is one major point I disagree with in that, "nature is God itself." No, in order to be able to establish all that we observe before us, the ability we have for communication, our thought processes, our emotions...Our Creator does indeed have a character. Just by observation our Creator is not nature itself, but a real true entity with a character and of limitless knowledge. I see no other way for us to exist than for an intelligent being to have brought all of the universe, nature, and life itself into existence.  The thought that we have what we have today just from a beginning set of laws and simple calculations is foolish to say that somehow those set of laws and simple calculations with the means to materialize matter have always existed without any means of intelligence to establish them.

Matter, energy, laws of physics are conditions. You're separating identical things for some odd reason, probably to suit your own argument.

These exist because of the result of an action, not an intelligent action. The laws presented themselves after the resolution of the Big Bang, not prior. That's ludicrous. 

You missed the point entirely in regard to the size of the Universe. Why wouldn't there be simply a Universe the size of the solar system? There is no need for billions of other stars and planets. It's pointless. It's wasteful. 

You see intelligent design because that's what you're looking for which detracts from your ability to be objective.

It is possible that life is only present on Earth, but the odds of life existing elsewhere are VASTLY superior to this notion. See the Drake Equation for this confirmation. 

I do, however, agree that by the time the Sun is large enough to destroy our planet, we'll have the means to leave, and perhaps become a nomadic space species, but this in no way ties in with biblical teachings.

 



Alara317 said:
DaRev said:

First off let me say that I'm sorry you feel that religion/Christianity has been basically forced down your throat for most your life - seriously, I men that.

However, such doesn't excuse your ignorance.For a serial rapist or pediafile will find very little sympathy from other for his wrong doing. I'm not calling you a rapist or a pedafile, but only pointing out that wrong doing has no excuse. I say you're doing wrong because if you know anything about religion/Christianity you would know that it is all about LOVE. And it is probably love, maybe a bit misguided, that has brought so many religious people into your life.

 Secondly, the fact that you've been in many religious discussion, doesn't mean jack. Next thing you'll be telling me is that because you have a political view, you're a Polititian or fit to be a Senator or maybe even President? Being in religious debates doesn't mean you're a religious scholar, but it could mean you've just been talking shit all these years with absolutely no foundation. Ultimately, the point I was making is that to be good at anything, you have to spend years dedicated to it, whether it be a profession, a hobby, or even Religion/christianity. Just talking about stuff doesn't make you an expert - and certainly not fit to debate Christianity.

With regards your challenge in bold, what is your argument or point of view about Christianity? For the sake of argument, mine wouuld be that God loves everyone, including you, even now. So what's your argumen or angle?

Bold - No, no it is not.  Religion is only about what an individual wants it to be about.  for some it's about controlling others through fear or desperation. for some it means justifying evils.  for some it's the unbridled truth in their eyes.  For others it's just another way to segregate us.  Since Religion as a whole has so many denominations, sub-groups, and variations (has to be up in the millions by now), there's absolutely no way you could possibly claim that you know what each and every facet of each and every variation is about.  If that's what it means to you, then by all means please do continue to preach love and tolerance and understanding and kindness, but don't dare think that just becuase you want to believe something (Religion is about Love) that it's true.  that's kind of what this whole discussion is about.  

And I'd say dedicating 7 years of my life to fighting off logical fallacies, aggressive ignorance, and constant judgement-based harassment is a pretty good amount of time dedicated to the craft of fighting religious ignorance and intolerance.  

I've had people tell me that my relationship with my girlfriend was an affront to God becuase homosexuality was a Sin.  When I asked for proof, all they were able to bring up was a quote from Leviticus where Jesus said something about it being Wicked for a man to lie with another man (citation Needed.)  I countered it saying that nowhere in there did it say that homosexuality was a sin and that it was a very vague statement up to an individual's personal judgement and interpretation.  I was once again told I was ignorant of the subject since I had the devil in me.  No refute to my point, just a casual dismissal becuase they had nothing to say.  

When people make faulty points regarding religion, science (especially evolution), and society in the name of religion, it's not hard for me to go through a list of logical fallacies and pinpoint exactly why their argument fails.  Back it up with science, back it up with history, back it up with logic and rationale and even explain the behaviours with even the most basic of human psychology, and you will not convince a religious person that they're wrong.  I quoted House earlier and I stand by my assertion that rational arguments don't work on religious people, otherwise there would be no religious people.  I'm not saying all religious people are dumb or ignorant or stupid, but the very concept of religion has about a dozen logical barriers to overcome.  The entire thing is based on faith, faith above all else that people aren't lying to you.  Faith that the bible (or whatever holy scripture you believe in) was written by the hands of god, that it was never tampered with, that the people telling you about it don't have an agenda, that something that was relevant over a millenia ago is still relevant today, that in spite of hundreds of doomsday rapture threats that never came true, that there's an afterlife.  

Every religious argument is inherently faulty becuase it's based on assertions with no backing evidence.  you can believe anything you want, and you can even debate philosophies with ease, but once you start making assertions about the genesis of the world, our place in it, and the existence of beings and their supposed judgements, you need more proof than any religion can offer.  

It can't be done, yet religion still gets to control the world.  I have a real issue with that.  And being critical of it and demanding it play by the same rules that anything else in the world has to play by is met with aggressive hostility mixed with the symphonic blubbering of zealouts unable to support their claims, collectively resorting to a base 'freedom of religion' clause.  

I really wish I had my big list of different ways to debunk religion on me.  it would be fun to copy and paste the lengthy explanations as to why each and every pro-religion argument can be effectively debated and crushed with simple logic, historical proof, and above all else, science.  

Proviso: I’m only speaking about Christianity in the following.

 

Regarding you first paragraph, John 3:16 is probably the most well know verse in the Bible, “For God so LOVED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If you know anything about Christianity, as you claim you do, you would know that the whole of Christianity is based on God’s love for us, in that we cannot save ourselves because of human nature, that he sent his Son Jesus out of love to help bring us salvation from ourselves. Analogy, some people use knives to kill, some people use knives to cook, but that doesn’t change what a knife is. Similarly Christianity is love, no matter how people use it. It’s the people that are wrong not Christianity.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, so where has all this fighting religion gotten you? You sound quite bitter and broken to me. Maybe you should stop fighting, and start loving.

 

Regarding your third paragraph, I agree that it is wrong to simply say that God doesn’t like homosexuals. Again I say God loves everyone. However it is the ‘unnatural’ sexual act that, IMHO, God has a problem with. For example, Murderers and Homosexuals are no different, as it is not the person that is the problem, but the act that they commit. Thieves and Liars, etc, are in the same boat, sin is sin, wrong doing is wrong doing, God doesn’t single out Homosexuality.  So while you were right stand up against those ‘Christians’, I assume because of your lack of knowing what the Bible says, you could argue except out of hatred. For example, why did you recite John 8:1-11 for them?

 

Regarding you fourth paragraph, too many points for me to tackle, so I will just focus on Faith. Again, I say that it is clear you have a lack of knowledge about the bible. For example, if I ask you what is faith, you probably give me some crap you pulled from the internet. But the bible clearly tells you what faith is at Hebrews 11:1 that “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Now if you were study and dissect just that one verse from the Bible you will see that ‘Christian Faith’ has substance and is based on evidence. Then there is the word ‘hope’, which the bible also explains in great detail, but it’s not the kind of hope that people commonly use. Christian faith and hope has a sense of surety about it, for example, I hope that when I go to the bank I can get 20 of my 30 dollars put in. Not the same hope that I will win the NY lottery someday.

 

Regarding you fifth paragraph, God will not force you to believe in him, so neither should anyone else. The choice is yours. However, the evidence of God is all around you. For if you can believe that airplanes, cars, buildings, bombs, etc, in there perfection were all created, why would not believe that, humans, animals, water, mountains, in there perfection were also created? In the same way computers where created and didn’t just spring from the ground, same way humans didn’t just sprout from the ground. Bible talks about the evidence of God in Nature J 

 

Sixth paragraph, Christianity hopes to save all and that all come to the recognition of God. But it also says that MOST people will not believe. Hopefully you would be one of the MOST that don’t believe.


And finally, your last paragraph, I welcome you challenge, but please just post one or two. I really can’t tale these long posts J 





Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:

Proviso: I’m only speaking about Christianity in the following.

 Regarding you first paragraph, John 3:16 is probably the most well know verse in the Bible, “For God so LOVED the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If you know anything about Christianity, as you claim you do, you would know that the whole of Christianity is based on God’s love for us, in that we cannot save ourselves because of human nature, that he sent his Son Jesus out of love to help bring us salvation from ourselves. Analogy, some people use knives to kill, some people use knives to cook, but that doesn’t change what a knife is. Similarly Christianity is love, no matter how people use it. It’s the people that are wrong not Christianity.

 Regarding your second paragraph, so where has all this fighting religion gotten you? You sound quite bitter and broken to me. Maybe you should stop fighting, and start loving.

 Regarding your third paragraph, I agree that it is wrong to simply say that God doesn’t like homosexuals. Again I say God loves everyone. However it is the ‘unnatural’ sexual act that, IMHO, God has a problem with. For example, Murderers and Homosexuals are no different, as it is not the person that is the problem, but the act that they commit. Thieves and Liars, etc, are in the same boat, sin is sin, wrong doing is wrong doing, God doesn’t single out Homosexuality.  So while you were right stand up against those ‘Christians’, I assume because of your lack of knowing what the Bible says, you could argue except out of hatred. For example, why did you recite John 8:1-11 for them?

 Regarding you fourth paragraph, too many points for me to tackle, so I will just focus on Faith. Again, I say that it is clear you have a lack of knowledge about the bible. For example, if I ask you what is faith, you probably give me some crap you pulled from the internet. But the bible clearly tells you what faith is at Hebrews 11:1 that “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Now if you were study and dissect just that one verse from the Bible you will see that ‘Christian Faith’ has substance and is based on evidence. Then there is the word ‘hope’, which the bible also explains in great detail, but it’s not the kind of hope that people commonly use. Christian faith and hope has a sense of surety about it, for example, I hope that when I go to the bank I can get 20 of my 30 dollars put in. Not the same hope that I will win the NY lottery someday.

 Regarding you fifth paragraph, God will not force you to believe in him, so neither should anyone else. The choice is yours. However, the evidence of God is all around you. For if you can believe that airplanes, cars, buildings, bombs, etc, in there perfection were all created, why would not believe that, humans, animals, water, mountains, in there perfection were also created? In the same way computers where created and didn’t just spring from the ground, same way humans didn’t just sprout from the ground. Bible talks about the evidence of God in Nature J 

 Sixth paragraph, Christianity hopes to save all and that all come to the recognition of God. But it also says that MOST people will not believe. Hopefully you would be one of the MOST that don’t believe.

And finally, your last paragraph, I welcome you challenge, but please just post one or two. I really can’t tale these long posts J 

But that's the issue, dude, the 'for god so loved the world' stuff is only the new testament.  Half of the bible.  the revisionist edition.  There's a whole series of books about judgement and hellfire and sodom and floods and all this stuff about burning people and sleeping with animals.  I respect and appreciate that you chose to believe the parts that are about love and unity, but let's be honest here, you can't honestly think that's all there is.  That's one of the reaosns I dismiss religion:  its members tend to pick and chose what they want to believe in, explaining away what doesn't coincide with their own beliefs.  

I'm not broken and bitter, I'm actually a very happy, positive guy.  I have done more to help than most people I know, I don't need religion to tell me to be kind to others, I just really, really dislike what religion has done to the world.  I have a problem with religion becuase you don't NEED a god to tell you to be good, but it's a damn good excuse for judging others and getting away with it.  if I was to go on a hateful rant about how homosexuality is wrong becuase it doesn't make babies and is unnatural, I'd be laughed at and rightfully persecuted for my ignorance.  But if I say GOD says homosexuality is a sin, I'd have people worldwide backing me up, and the media would ignore me becuase I have a 'freedom of religion.'  This goes for anything from restricting science (stem cell research, refusing to teach evolution in schools), to the judging of others.  Nobody complains when someone does something good in the name of god, but when you do something terrible or say something terrible you're defended for your religious rights, and that's a double standard.  

This is another thing, what's wrong with homosexuality?  it doesn't actually harm anyone, provided the right precautions are taken (lube, condoms, etc), but the same thing can be said about building a house or going skydiving.  There is absolutely no harm to engaging in homosexual behaviours, so there's no reason to have a problem with it.  It's unnatural?  says who?  animals hump their own males, and that's okay.  We make computers and houses and plastics and vehicles and that's all unnatural, so why doesn't god have a problem with that?  Is it a matter of not making babies?  who cares?  the world is overpopulated, it wouldn't kill us to have a few fewer babies.  by that statement, condoms should be against god's law too, and anyone with a brain can tell you that's just plain stupid.  

I do not lack knowledge about the bible, I've read it front to back three times in my life and have idly been doing research on its lessons, judgements, and inconsistencies.  And don't lecture me on faith, I know precisely what faith is, and nobody likes my assessment of it.  Faith is, for all intents and purposes, the belief in something not based on proof.  And therein lies my issue.  you cant possibly know that god exists or does not exist, you can'tpossibly know if there's an afterlife, yet people are dedicating their lives to this belief, and that saddens me.  If you want to believe something or have faith in god, that's fine, but that's why I think you should keep it to yourself.  As soon as you put it out there for all to see, you should be expected to withstand logical criticism.  

WE created buildings and airplanes, of course they were created.  the difference between a wheelbarrow and a beaver is that beavers are natural and wheelbarrows are man-made.  This is an inherently flawed argument from three diffferent angles.  To make it worse, who made God?  if you have to believe everything was created, why doesn't god need a creator?  what's that?  he doesn't?  He defies conventional laws of physics?  Well gee, that's awfully convenient of him.  Who's to say the creation of the universe isn't just something equally beyond our understanding?  There's no NEED to apply a grand creator to the whole ordeal, that's just silly and desperate.  

I'd love to meet your challenge, but there is no challenge in place.  Your one thing about 'we believe things are created, so why can't we be?' argument is flawed right out of the gate.  it's a return to that faith thing, faith that what you believe is true despite there being no evidence.  we have evidence buildigns are created, we see them being created.  There is no actual argument for human creation beyond "Well, we might have been created, we don't know."  Yeah, and a giant might have molded mountains from rock and dirtbecuase he was bored, we don't know, but that's certainly not significant evidence to claim that it is the truth.  

it is nice, however, to speak with someone who is capable of writing something that can actually be deciphered, so thanks for that. 



little something for the people claiming I can't debate or am full of shit:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=151401&page=1#



Alara317 said:
ninetailschris said:
Alara317 said:
DaRev said:

First off let me say that I'm sorry you feel that religion/Christianity has been basically forced down your throat for most your life - seriously, I men that.

However, such doesn't excuse your ignorance.For a serial rapist or pediafile will find very little sympathy from other for his wrong doing. I'm not calling you a rapist or a pedafile, but only pointing out that wrong doing has no excuse. I say you're doing wrong because if you know anything about religion/Christianity you would know that it is all about LOVE. And it is probably love, maybe a bit misguided, that has brought so many religious people into your life.

 Secondly, the fact that you've been in many religious discussion, doesn't mean jack. Next thing you'll be telling me is that because you have a political view, you're a Polititian or fit to be a Senator or maybe even President? Being in religious debates doesn't mean you're a religious scholar, but it could mean you've just been talking shit all these years with absolutely no foundation. Ultimately, the point I was making is that to be good at anything, you have to spend years dedicated to it, whether it be a profession, a hobby, or even Religion/christianity. Just talking about stuff doesn't make you an expert - and certainly not fit to debate Christianity.

With regards your challenge in bold, what is your argument or point of view about Christianity? For the sake of argument, mine wouuld be that God loves everyone, including you, even now. So what's your argumen or angle?

Bold - No, no it is not.  Religion is only about what an individual wants it to be about.  for some it's about controlling others through fear or desperation. for some it means justifying evils.  for some it's the unbridled truth in their eyes.  For others it's just another way to segregate us.  Since Religion as a whole has so many denominations, sub-groups, and variations (has to be up in the millions by now), there's absolutely no way you could possibly claim that you know what each and every facet of each and every variation is about.  If that's what it means to you, then by all means please do continue to preach love and tolerance and understanding and kindness, but don't dare think that just becuase you want to believe something (Religion is about Love) that it's true.  that's kind of what this whole discussion is about.  

And I'd say dedicating 7 years of my life to fighting off logical fallacies, aggressive ignorance, and constant judgement-based harassment is a pretty good amount of time dedicated to the craft of fighting religious ignorance and intolerance.  

I've had people tell me that my relationship with my girlfriend was an affront to God becuase homosexuality was a Sin.  When I asked for proof, all they were able to bring up was a quote from Leviticus where Jesus said something about it being Wicked for a man to lie with another man (citation Needed.)  I countered it saying that nowhere in there did it say that homosexuality was a sin and that it was a very vague statement up to an individual's personal judgement and interpretation.  I was once again told I was ignorant of the subject since I had the devil in me.  No refute to my point, just a casual dismissal becuase they had nothing to say.  

When people make faulty points regarding religion, science (especially evolution), and society in the name of religion, it's not hard for me to go through a list of logical fallacies and pinpoint exactly why their argument fails.  Back it up with science, back it up with history, back it up with logic and rationale and even explain the behaviours with even the most basic of human psychology, and you will not convince a religious person that they're wrong.  I quoted House earlier and I stand by my assertion that rational arguments don't work on religious people, otherwise there would be no religious people.  I'm not saying all religious people are dumb or ignorant or stupid, but the very concept of religion has about a dozen logical barriers to overcome.  The entire thing is based on faith, faith above all else that people aren't lying to you.  Faith that the bible (or whatever holy scripture you believe in) was written by the hands of god, that it was never tampered with, that the people telling you about it don't have an agenda, that something that was relevant over a millenia ago is still relevant today, that in spite of hundreds of doomsday rapture threats that never came true, that there's an afterlife.  

Every religious argument is inherently faulty becuase it's based on assertions with no backing evidence.  you can believe anything you want, and you can even debate philosophies with ease, but once you start making assertions about the genesis of the world, our place in it, and the existence of beings and their supposed judgements, you need more proof than any religion can offer.  

It can't be done, yet religion still gets to control the world.  I have a real issue with that.  And being critical of it and demanding it play by the same rules that anything else in the world has to play by is met with aggressive hostility mixed with the symphonic blubbering of zealouts unable to support their claims, collectively resorting to a base 'freedom of religion' clause.  

I really wish I had my big list of different ways to debunk religion on me.  it would be fun to copy and paste the lengthy explanations as to why each and every pro-religion argument can be effectively debated and crushed with simple logic, historical proof, and above all else, science.  

 

"Bold - No, no it is not.  Religion is only about what an individual wants it to be about."

Are we talking all religions or  just Christianity because so far this  horrible response to what he  was asking.

"Religion is only about what an individual wants it to be about.  for some it's about controlling others through fear or desperation. for some it means justifying evils.  for some it's the unbridled truth in their eyes.  For others it's just another way to segregate us.  Since Religion as a whole has so many denominations, sub-groups, and variations (has to be up in the millions by now), there's absolutely no way you could possibly claim that you know what each and every facet of each and every variation is about.  If that's what it means to you, then by all means please do continue to preach love and tolerance and understanding and kindness, but don't dare think that just becuase you want to believe something (Religion is about Love) that it's true."

Everything you said has nothing do with what bible says therefor your point is just how people react to Christianity in which case has no effort on the true value of the bible. Please tell me were it says to these people  do x from the bible because if anything I could say the same for anything. But all in all you have a problem with how people react in certain religions but not the actual religion itself in which case means your arguing from stand point personal bias not from a objective stance.

I want take a certain part from the paragraph

"If that's what it means to you, then by all means please do continue to preach love and tolerance and understanding and kindness, but don't dare think that just becuase you want to believe something (Religion is about Love) that it's true"

You gave no reason to why under christianity what he said was wrong but only just said your wrong because I personal believe your wrong. All you done so far was give subjective reactions and not attack on did the bible legitimentally said to do x. With you saying anyone can twist anything and make it true shows you have no clue what your talking about and only replying to fundamentalism with fundamentalism. If someone makes a claim about bible saying x we have data in bible and background to show what these people were saying and doing. Its called scholars and books.

"When people make faulty points regarding religion, science (especially evolution), and society in the name of religion, it's not hard for me to go through a list of logical fallacies and pinpoint exactly why their argument fails.  .  "

Why evolution? The Catholic Church accepted evolution day one. Ironic darwin was a Christian only after his child died a painful death in which case he couldn't understand why God did that to him. You say " list of logical fallacies and pinpoint exactly why their argument fails. "  but as you done so far I'm willing to bet even if you did have this list it would itself be based on fallacy and misinformation. 

"Back it up with science, back it up with history, back it up with logic and rationale and even explain the behaviours with even the most basic of human psychology, and you will not convince a religious person that they're wrong.  I quoted House earlier and I stand by my assertion that rational arguments don't work on religious people, otherwise there would be no religious people.  "

There is the cosmological argument  and  teleological argument in which uses the facts of science in deductive arguments. We can can even go into Historial case for Jesus Resurrection. If you feel like debating me in this please do so because I will show you that do back up what I say. "religious person that they're wrong" You can say the same thing about atheist which I have done before many times some which didn't have a basic ability to read. " I quoted House earlier and I stand by my assertion that rational arguments don't work on religious people, otherwise there would be no religious people. " Well I guess you can say the same for atheist :/ so I guess humans in general? Your arguments are in gerenal arguements from ignorance and nativity. You could use your examples almost exactly for atheists.

"I'm not saying all religious people are dumb or ignorant or stupid, but the very concept of religion has about a dozen logical barriers to overcome.  The entire thing is based on faith, faith above all else that people aren't lying to you.  Faith that the bible (or whatever holy scripture you believe in) was written by the hands of god, that it was never tampered with, that the people telling you about it don't have an agenda, that something that was relevant over a millenia ago is still relevant today, that in spite of hundreds of doomsday rapture threats that never came true, that there's an afterlife.  "

So, atheist don't jump over logical barriers you really want to do this? Just give me a go and I will write some down for you to read. Oh let me write down some of atheist quotes in which are so dumb it makes fundismentalist look educated. I already talked about faith and what is was described in bible as loyality based on evidence has shown by Jesus. By the way I don't have worry but someone lying to me as I actually read books on this which you haven't done mostly on anything on Christianity." that the people telling you about it don't have an agenda, that something that was relevant over a millenia ago is still relevant today". Lol here comes the conspicaries already? Why do people talk about logic then later talk bring up everyone has agenda stuff like this discredits anything you previous said and contradicts what you practice/believe. Oh again using the fallacy of time in which because x was founded in x time then x is wrong is one of the illogical arguments there is. This argument is commonly used by people who don't know history and haven't studied it and think there smart making arguments from ignorance."spite of hundreds of doomsday rapture threats that never came true, that there's an afterlife.  ""  Where are you even  getting this from? People always pre-claim doomsday Christian or atheist and were does it say any date for a the end of times why are reaching for something that isn't there? Are you just trying convince yourself with this weak arguments that you defeated the Christians? Most of your points are against non-educated Christians and generalizations.

"Every religious argument is inherently faulty becuase it's based on assertions with no backing evidence.  you can believe anything you want, and you can even debate philosophies with ease, but once you start making assertions about the genesis of the world, our place in it, and the existence of beings and their supposed judgements, you need more proof than any religion can offer.  "

What assertions you just saying this in claim format and expecting the person to just agree with it with no questions. This isn't even coherent because it doesn't tell anyone what your responding to just seems your attacking air. And are you saying science doesn't use philosophy? Do even know what your talking about at this point have you even read a book on philosophy do you even know what your addressing?

"It can't be done, yet religion still gets to control the world.  I have a real issue with that.  And being critical of it and demanding it play by the same rules that anything else in the world has to play by is met with aggressive hostility mixed with the symphonic blubbering of zealouts unable to support their claims, collectively resorting to a base 'freedom of religion' clause.  "

What did you even do to show your right besides grouping people and attacking the uneducated/ easy targets? You haven't made on logical point and have to say to far it's been all incoherent and dodging the issue.

"I really wish I had my big list of different ways to debunk religion on me.  it would be fun to copy and paste the lengthy explanations as to why each and every pro-religion argument can be effectively debated and crushed with simple logic, historical proof, and above all else, science.  "

Ok I'm here bring it on crush my arguments with your "logic" and I hope you come with the good ones because far it's been pretty weak. Actually weak would be a understatement.

I seriously wouldn't be surprised if you just copy and paste some random site or use wiki in which someone else did and was shown quickly how that will not fly. So,please why not destroy the arguments that I mention and please stop attacking easy targets because of your lack of ability to take on the actually issues.


 

Wow.  All I can say is wow.  In an effort to give you the respect I thought you deserved, I thought to myself, "You know, these people seem pretty keen on getting me to whip out my debate chops; maybe I'll try a point for point rebuttal."  

then I started reading your response and I think I lost a few IQ points.  

I only made it about 1/3 through your post before giving up trying to understand the point you were trying to make.  I copied and pasted your responses to friends and even 4chan to see if anyone could make the slightest sense out of what you were trying to say, and the most common response I got was to - you know what, in the interest of being nice I'll clean up the language a bit - ask if you were either very young or suffering a severe concussion.  

Not only do you not know how to spell, but you can't write a proper sentence to save your life and your ability to convey ideas and points is so broken that trying to interpret your rambling jibberish is like decoding subtitles on a foreign porno when I was 12, and the signal was jammed and you could barely make out a tit. 

I'm well aware that this is technically an ad hominem attack, and that doesn't make me look mature or able to debate your points, but when I have to spend 3x as long deciphering what it is you're trying to say as I would take planning and writing a rebuttal, I'm only further reminded why I don't bother arguing with people about religion.  I've debated with intelligent, well-spoken people before, but your post is a rather scathing commentary on the group as a whole.  Go back, rewrite that at a 5th grade level, and I'd love to have a discussion with you.  Until then, please go read a book or something.  In fact, this is a game forum, may I recommend a game?  I heard Mavis Beacon teaches typing is a great starter; and as an added bonus it's on for 20% off! 

http://www.broderbund.com/c-28-typing-keyboarding.aspx?gclid=CPO-wfSOmbQCFY9DMgod6T4AIg

Now, I'm going to return to trying to interpret your incoherent rant to see if I can salvage something from it.  I'll get back to you soon.  

Wow,when in doubt attack grammar? Should point out all of your grammar mistakes? 

My writing was coherent its probably you are slow.

Please tell how it was incoherent?

Quote me and don't make claims.

I formatted my responses to the quotes to keep everything organized. My responses relate to everything being quoted and my responses in them go in order of each issue presented from first to last. And to the issue of grammar I just read everything over and there really is some grammar mistakes because I didn't go back and proof read, but then again you had some grammar mistakes yourself.

If you need me to organize even more with sub-quotes (which I was trying to avoid so it wouldn't be to long). Then ok, I will gladly do. I want to give you no reason to avoid my points. 



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max