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Forums - Politics - Victory for the Constitution... in Illinois?!

Max King of the Wild said:
Soleron said:
ninetailschris said:
...

Bad use of data because you have states in USA that have gun control and some that don't.

Concealed carry or needing a permit is not  really gun control. People still, like, have guns.


It really is. Because in Illinois you had to jump through hoops which made it near impossible to get a gun for a while. Which was deemed unconstitutional also.

It was established Ilinois is the only state that did this, and not any more. So it's wrong because it's only true for 49/50 states?

Regardless, gun OWNERSHIP is the statistic it's claiming correlation with. People OWNING guns -> more murders. Please argue against that instead.



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The article is a few years old, but interesting. Here's an excerpt

"As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms.

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city’s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township’s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

This was not what some predicted."


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/#o07Gm2bVuDuzFzFL.99

Considering this is close to Atlanta, which has terrible crime and murder rates, the no fatal shooting statistic is pretty incredible.



FOID is the next thing that needs to go. The law in Illinois is something like they need to process the application within a month because before the law was passed Illinois would sit on the applications on purpose (Another thing Illinois tried to fight but was found unconstitutional). However, it took me near six months to recieve mine.



Soleron said:
ninetailschris said:
...

Bad use of data because you have states in USA that have gun control and some that don't.

Concealed carry or needing a permit is not  really gun control. People still, like, have guns.


You can have illegal guns which the chart uses which means its in illegal use which is different from legal.

Gun control can range from no guns to very limited which can mean no hand guns or something similar.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

Soleron said:
timmah said:
...

I have friends in law enforcement and EMS, and I know that a lot of robberies turn into murders because many criminals are nuts. They could be high on hard drugs, or just stone cold psychopaths. There's no way for me to know if the criminal has a gun or other weapon, what his intentions are with me and my family, if he intends to kill any potential witnesses, whatever. Are you suggesting that I should wait until he kills me before I kill him? You've got to be kidding me. I have two young daughters and a wife, if somebody breaks into my house, there's a chance they could end up killing me and my family, raping my wife, or any number of terrible things. That's why they won't get past the front door. If they turn tail and run, fine, I'll just call the cops. If they make any move at all besides out the door, they're dead. Period.

Again, I don't care abut likelihoods or psychology, to me it is always wrong to shoot someone unless they are literally pointing a gun at you.

Also why do forum people always fucking resort to emotional arguments like 'suppose your female family members were being raped'. We can have a discussion without resorting to that.

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't get. If you wait until the criminal is pointing a gun at you, you're alread dead. Good luck with that.

Also, that's not an emotional argument, it's something that unfortunately happens in the real world, and it is  a legitimate concern if somebody has forced entry into your home while you're there. You have way too much faith in criminals to be decent, well meaning people who just need some new stuff. Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but it's simply naive.



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Soleron said:
Max King of the Wild said:
Soleron said:
ninetailschris said:
...

Bad use of data because you have states in USA that have gun control and some that don't.

Concealed carry or needing a permit is not  really gun control. People still, like, have guns.


It really is. Because in Illinois you had to jump through hoops which made it near impossible to get a gun for a while. Which was deemed unconstitutional also.

It was established Ilinois is the only state that did this, and not any more. So it's wrong because it's only true for 49/50 states?

Regardless, gun OWNERSHIP is the statistic it's claiming correlation with. People OWNING guns -> more murders. Please argue against that instead.


People owning legal guns are proven to be less crime which has been shown by all the data that has been shown and countries were you given a gun by the government(Switzerland.) Florida and could other states and countries with data if you want even more to show were it lowered crime.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

timmah said:
Soleron said:
timmah said:
...

I have friends in law enforcement and EMS, and I know that a lot of robberies turn into murders because many criminals are nuts. They could be high on hard drugs, or just stone cold psychopaths. There's no way for me to know if the criminal has a gun or other weapon, what his intentions are with me and my family, if he intends to kill any potential witnesses, whatever. Are you suggesting that I should wait until he kills me before I kill him? You've got to be kidding me. I have two young daughters and a wife, if somebody breaks into my house, there's a chance they could end up killing me and my family, raping my wife, or any number of terrible things. That's why they won't get past the front door. If they turn tail and run, fine, I'll just call the cops. If they make any move at all besides out the door, they're dead. Period.

Again, I don't care abut likelihoods or psychology, to me it is always wrong to shoot someone unless they are literally pointing a gun at you.

Also why do forum people always fucking resort to emotional arguments like 'suppose your female family members were being raped'. We can have a discussion without resorting to that.

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't get. If you wait until the criminal is pointing a gun at you, you're alread dead. Good luck with that.

Also, that's not an emotional argument, it's something that unfortunately happens in the real world, and it is  a legitimate concern if somebody has forced entry into your home while you're there. You have way too much faith in criminals to be decent, well meaning people who just need some new stuff. Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but it's simply naive.

I link a local killing were someone killed a person for some pizza and change. He was a former prisoner. This was perfect example of a life a criminal having a illegal gun and killing someone who did nothing but give pizza to the man.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

timmah said:
...

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't get. If you wait until the criminal is pointing a gun at you, you're alread dead. Good luck with that.

Also, that's not an emotional argument, it's something that unfortunately happens in the real world, and it is  a legitimate concern if somebody has forced entry into your home while you're there. You have way too much faith in criminals to be decent, well meaning people who just need some new stuff. Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but it's simply naive.

Again, no. I expect them to be murdering psychopaths. It's just not OK to be one yourself.

And sure, rape happens, but why is the example you resort to, "but what if your wife was being raped?". There are other examples that are less "OH ITS MY WIFE YOU'RE RIGHT I'D SHOOT THE BASTARD".



timmah said:
Soleron said:
timmah said:
...

 

 

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't get. If you wait until the criminal is pointing a gun at you, you're alread dead. Good luck with that.

Also, that's not an emotional argument, it's something that unfortunately happens in the real world, and it is  a legitimate concern if somebody has forced entry into your home while you're there. You have way too much faith in criminals to be decent, well meaning people who just need some new stuff. Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but it's simply naive.

LOL, I don't see how the dude doesn't get it. The fact is as someone being burglarized you have no idea what the intention of the criminal is and if you don't act by the time you find out their intentions it may be too late. It's only appealing to emotion if the act you are appealing to has no connection with the argument. However, rape is something criminals break into homes due and having a gun to shoot at said criminal can stop the rape from occuring.



Soleron said:
timmah said:
...

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't get. If you wait until the criminal is pointing a gun at you, you're alread dead. Good luck with that.

Also, that's not an emotional argument, it's something that unfortunately happens in the real world, and it is  a legitimate concern if somebody has forced entry into your home while you're there. You have way too much faith in criminals to be decent, well meaning people who just need some new stuff. Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but it's simply naive.

Again, no. I expect them to be murdering psychopaths. It's just not OK to be one yourself.

And sure, rape happens, but why is the example you resort to, "but what if your wife was being raped?". There are other examples that are less "OH ITS MY WIFE YOU'RE RIGHT I'D SHOOT THE BASTARD".

The fact is by the time you find out if the guy broke in to either rape, steal, kill, have fun, terrorize you, ect ect it may be too late for you and your family. It's called preventive measure which I would rather have.  The burglar clearly has no regard for you or your family so why would you extend curtesy that he is not willing to show to you?