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Forums - Nintendo - Face-Off: Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U

Chrizum on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
Chrizum said:
pezus said:
Chrizum said:

So your point is that the graphical leap from PS3/360 to Wii-U isn't as large as from PS2 to PS3? Well congratiulations, have a cookie you genius.

Read the post I was replying to first and then try again. If you didn't notice, I was correcting him when he said PS3 ports were terrible and he used that as a point for his argument. Sure, they weren't up to PS3's full power, but they were significantly better looking than the PS2/Xbox counterparts.

Yes, that is because the PS3 is much, much more powerful than the PS2/Xbox. That's timmah's point.

That's what you read out of this?

To put it in perspective, launch ports from the Dreamcast to the PS2 - TERRIBLE. Launch ports on the PS3 - BAD. Launch ports to the Wii U, generally on par with or slightly below the original (but still good and playable), while Trine 2 was a bit better. Both the PS2 and PS3 turned out just fine, so the future is bright for the little Wii U.

 

He said PS3 ports were BAD, but said PS3 turned out just fine and was using that to say Wii U will turn out fine as well. I'm not saying it won't, but the difference from Xbox->PS3 is far greater than PS3-> WiiU

More importantly, 360 to PS3 ports were BAD, especially in the beginning. That's a much more relevant comparison than PS2 to PS3.



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timmah on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
timmah said:

*sigh*, I guess there's literally no logic that would work with you on this. Launch ports and 1st generation games on a new console have always been graphically well below the full capability of the system, but you're just going to ignore that. This is not even debatable.

EDIT: And if you think that the PS4 is going to be anywhere near as big a leap PS3 was to PS2, you're going to be very disappointed. Keep in mind this is a good thing, it means Sony may actually stay in business and we can have great games like Uncharted continue to be made. Competition is good for everybody.

None of that is relevant to what I'm saying. 

People keep telling me "Oh, but Wii U will have much better looking games in the future than PS3/360 games" but then do a complete 180 when talking about 720/PS4. AS IF they wouldn't increase the power significantly 8-9 years later. It's very, very easy to make a lot more powerful console today and next year than in 2005/2006. Wii U ports just about match PS3/360, while 360/PS3 ports early on already showed huge strides over last gen. This is a pretty significant clue about Wii U's jump. 

It's in Sony and MS's best interest to distance themselves as far as possible from Nintendo's system because they will not want Nintendo to get their 3rd party support.

History is not irrelevent, there's no way that games developed for the Wii U in a couple years will only match rushed launched ports, no way at all. Logically it follows that, if day 1 lauched ports with little to no optimization are about on par with some of the best of the current gen, future games will be a meaningful improvement of that (so there will be a graphical leap from PS360 to WiiU, especially when the more advanced features of the *much* more modern GPU are used). You greatly undervalue the power of optimization for a new architecture given the complexities of today's games.

No doubt the PS4 will be more powerful, the question is by how much. Does the latest PS4 dev kit being a modified PC with an AMD A10 CPU/GPU combo (not a beast by any stretch) & Sony talking about making 'very affordable' hardware mean nothing? It'll be a jump, but not anywhere near what you think in my 'umble opinion. No way it's as big as the last gen's jump for any console. If you got your wish on the PS4 and they pulled another 'PS3' on us, Sony would probably go out of business from the losses, and that's not good for the industry since it stifles competition. It's going to be interesting to watch the reaction if my opinion turns out to be correct. In any event, the PS4 is going to be great, no doubt there. I may even get one if the price is right!

Now that the thread has been totally derailed... :p



dahuman on 07 December 2012

PC wins, shocking!



Chandler on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
timmah said:

To put it in perspective, launch ports from the Dreamcast to the PS2 - TERRIBLE. Launch ports on the PS3 - BAD. Launch ports to the Wii U, generally on par with or slightly below the original (but still good and playable), while Trine 2 was a bit better. Both the PS2 and PS3 turned out just fine, so the future is bright for the little Wii U.

Launch ports on PS3: Looked way better than PS2 version

Launch ports on Wii U: Look way better than Wii version.



Ongoing bet with think-man: He wins if MH4 releases in any shape or form on PSV in 2013, I win if it doesn't.

timmah on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
Chrizum said:
pezus said:
Chrizum said:

So your point is that the graphical leap from PS3/360 to Wii-U isn't as large as from PS2 to PS3? Well congratiulations, have a cookie you genius.

Read the post I was replying to first and then try again. If you didn't notice, I was correcting him when he said PS3 ports were terrible and he used that as a point for his argument. Sure, they weren't up to PS3's full power, but they were significantly better looking than the PS2/Xbox counterparts.

Yes, that is because the PS3 is much, much more powerful than the PS2/Xbox. That's timmah's point.

That's what you read out of this?

To put it in perspective, launch ports from the Dreamcast to the PS2 - TERRIBLE. Launch ports on the PS3 - BAD. Launch ports to the Wii U, generally on par with or slightly below the original (but still good and playable), while Trine 2 was a bit better. Both the PS2 and PS3 turned out just fine, so the future is bright for the little Wii U.

 

He said PS3 ports were BAD, but said PS3 turned out just fine and was using that to say Wii U will turn out fine as well. I'm not saying it won't, but the difference from Xbox->PS3 is far greater than PS3-> WiiU

I agree 100% with that, the jump from XBOX>PS3 was much larger than PS3>WiiU. I think the leap in the next gen is not going to be nearly as big from a raw compute power standpoint, this is due to a change in how we're getting more performance now vs. then. The new CPUs and GPUs that exist now are very good at doing a lot more per clock cycle, think more shader pipelines, more texture units, direct compute, tesselation, far greater efficiency due to shorter execution pipelines, lower latency between components, etc. The launch ports were originally built on systems that did a lot of grunt work with raw power, so they're not going to get close to taking full advantage of the more advanced GPU.

Think about it this way, when the PS3 came out, it was all about clock speed and raw power. CPU's were pressing the envelope by being clocked higher than the last. On the other hand, PC's that are out today are far more focused on efficiency and optimization. An i3 clocked at 2.2GHz will outperform a P4 at 3.2GHz any day. On the other hand, an i7 clocked at 2GHz will handily beat an early 3GHz i3. You could go even further and note that some programs designed to run on a 3.2GHz P4 would perform worse on the 1.7GHz i7 because they are not designed to take advantage of the newer architecture. You could take a single threaded application designed for the P4, run it on a newer multi-core system, and come to the conclusion that the newer computer is not any better than the older one, but you'd be wrong. My point is that these early ports are not going to be a very good indicator because we're not talking about big jumps in raw clock rates, but in architecture and efficiency.



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SxyxS on 07 December 2012

I don't care about some fast cheap ports because this doesn't mean too much .Even if the wii u is 10 times more powerful than the ps360,a cheap port will make a game look pretty much like the original ps360version.

the problem with the wii u is that there are no 1st party or exclusiv games that look great.



Chandler on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
Chandler said:
pezus said:
timmah said:

To put it in perspective, launch ports from the Dreamcast to the PS2 - TERRIBLE. Launch ports on the PS3 - BAD. Launch ports to the Wii U, generally on par with or slightly below the original (but still good and playable), while Trine 2 was a bit better. Both the PS2 and PS3 turned out just fine, so the future is bright for the little Wii U.

Launch ports on PS3: Looked way better than PS2 version

Launch ports on Wii U: Look way better than Wii version.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4944506

 

It's still a SD-HD and an HD-HD comparison which doesn't fly. For Nintendo consoles and games it's a significant leap. However, you can spin it the way you want if it makes you feel better.



Ongoing bet with think-man: He wins if MH4 releases in any shape or form on PSV in 2013, I win if it doesn't.

timmah on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
timmah said:
pezus said:

None of that is relevant to what I'm saying. 

People keep telling me "Oh, but Wii U will have much better looking games in the future than PS3/360 games" but then do a complete 180 when talking about 720/PS4. AS IF they wouldn't increase the power significantly 8-9 years later. It's very, very easy to make a lot more powerful console today and next year than in 2005/2006. Wii U ports just about match PS3/360, while 360/PS3 ports early on already showed huge strides over last gen. This is a pretty significant clue about Wii U's jump. 

It's in Sony and MS's best interest to distance themselves as far as possible from Nintendo's system because they will not want Nintendo to get their 3rd party support.

History is not irrelevent, there's no way that games developed for the Wii U in a couple years will only match rushed launched ports, no way at all. Logically it follows that, if day 1 lauched ports with little to no optimization are about on par with some of the best of the current gen, future games will be a meaningful improvement of that (so there will be a graphical leap from PS360 to WiiU, especially when the more advanced features of the *much* more modern GPU are used). You greatly undervalue the power of optimization for a new architecture given the complexities of today's games.

No doubt the PS4 will be more powerful, the question is by how much. Does the latest PS4 dev kit being a modified PC with an AMD A10 CPU/GPU combo (not a beast by any stretch) & Sony talking about making 'very affordable' hardware mean nothing? It'll be a jump, but not anywhere near what you think in my 'umble opinion. No way it's as big as the last gen's jump for any console. If you got your wish on the PS4 and they pulled another 'PS3' on us, Sony would probably go out of business from the losses, and that's not good for the industry since it stifles competition. It's going to be interesting to watch the reaction if my opinion turns out to be correct. In any event, the PS4 is going to be great, no doubt there. I may even get one if the price is right!

Now that the thread has been totally derailed... :p

The main reasons PS3 was so expensive was the new Blu-Ray drive and The Cell (just look at PS3 vs. 360 price difference early on). They should be going for a more mainstream CPU architecture this time and Blu-Ray is pretty cheap nowadays. I don't know if the jump will be as big, but it will be noticable from the start, that's for sure.

Also, considering Sony games are more about graphics than Nintendo games, I assume there will be a lauch title designed to show that off (something which the Wii U doesn't have, even ZombiU was originally for the 360 I believe). All I'm saying is, the 1st party AAA games are going to blow these quick ports out of the water when they finally arrive.



Chandler on 07 December 2012
pezus said:
Chandler said:
pezus said:
Chandler said:
pezus said:
timmah said:

To put it in perspective, launch ports from the Dreamcast to the PS2 - TERRIBLE. Launch ports on the PS3 - BAD. Launch ports to the Wii U, generally on par with or slightly below the original (but still good and playable), while Trine 2 was a bit better. Both the PS2 and PS3 turned out just fine, so the future is bright for the little Wii U.

Launch ports on PS3: Looked way better than PS2 version

Launch ports on Wii U: Look way better than Wii version.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4944506

 

It's still a SD-HD and an HD-HD comparison which doesn't fly. For Nintendo consoles and games it's a significant leap. However, you can spin it the way you want if it makes you feel better.

Like I said in another post, SD-HD isn't a magical barrier. HD isn't just "HD". A jump from 720p to 1080p would've been huge.


No.



Ongoing bet with think-man: He wins if MH4 releases in any shape or form on PSV in 2013, I win if it doesn't.

HoloDust on 07 December 2012

Wow, had no idea this thread would go this path - this "rushed", "cheap" port seems very good, and I don't think it's either rushed or cheap. Yes, it shows slight slowdowns in some heavy populated areas (and honestly, that was pretty much expected), but considering that lot of journalists were pointing out that early previews had quite a bit of problems, final version seems more or less the same as others. I think that Ubisoft did pretty good job on this one.