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Forums - Politics - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles; so the holocaust excuses everything Israel does to someone else? That's an old and weak argument.


no one made that argument but you can continue to delude youself if you wish to be an ignoramus.


I hardly consider myself the ignorant party in this discussion. Insults aside; it was your intention to raise sympathy and have people look away from Israeli terror actions by posting that image, that much was clear. Its justification. Two wrongs does make a right etc.


it was pretty clear even to the person i posted the image to, that my problem was making comparisons between the this situation and that of the holocaust.   do you know why?   probably not...for reasons i stated already.    so please do continue on in your blatherings. 



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Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Except.... it isn't.  People find excuses all the time to allow or disallow these things.  The "difference" you are talking about is just another excuse that holds no real meaning.   They would pull their support the moment it became apparent it might pass.


Israel does not have any internationally recognised sovereignity over Palestine. As such the formation of Palestine is not seperatism.

The thing that concerns countries like Russia and Spain is whether self-determination can override sovereignity  - if said sovereignity does not exist (as is the case with Israel/Palestine) then it does not cause concern for those countries.

International soverinty is irrelvent, considering the majority of these cases happened before such a term existed.

Look up the Nagorno-Karabakh situation for basically the exact same thing but without all the high profile involvement.

I'm just leaving posts all over the place here... <_>

But Nagorno-Karabakh is different because the Armenia-Azerbaijan border was intended to be like the North Carolina/Tennessee border; they're all Soviets.

Just one of those things, like Abkhazia and South Ossetia, that nobody really thought through before the Soviet Union collapsed.

I'm not seeing what there actually makes it different.  Other then the claim that Amrenian's and Azerbaijan is the same simply because they both used to be in the Soviet Union.

Which is ridiculious.

They're actually more ethnically diverse then Jews and Muslims and also dividided by religion.

It's as similar to any situation as your likely to get in the world.

I mean in the sense that the borders were drawn back when nobody cared (or, no-one was expected to care); what does it matter if you're in this part of the Soviet Union or that part of the Soviet Union?

That said, a fair bit of border-drawing should have been done as part of the negotiations that led to the dissolution of the union, to fix problems of Russian minorities in Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, and Moldova, the Abkhazia/Ossetia question, Russians in Kazakhstan, and Nagorno-Karabakh.

They did care though... The SSR's in the USSR were pretty competitive and there were many skirmishes, complaints and uprisings when they were both part of the USSR.  

They fought wars while they were both part of the Soviet Union.


It's an area with no real status.



Mr Khan said:
Okay, i've culled a few folks in this thread

And with that, let me say that while this thread does not merit closure (as this is a legitimate topic, and most of the folks here are being reasonable), some of y'all really need to stop saying offensive stuff.

I have a low tolerance for some of the BS the Israelis pull, but i do understand that they feel threatened. At the same time, one has to understand the ineffectual and corrupt nature of the "legitimate" Palestinian party, Fatah, and that Hamas, while murderous and violent, are also likely the more honest of the two. Radical Islam should be condemned, but one must understand where this sort of thing is coming from. Terrorism isn't so much about ideology as it is about desperation; people in a desperate condition will latch onto an ideology that gives them an outlet. In America and Europe in the late 19th century, it was Anarchism. In the early 20th century, Bolshevik Socialism or Fascism, mid 20th century, Communism.


I'm highlighting this post, because I think its one of the best in the thread :)

Personally, I really have no idea what can be done with Isreal, they act very bullish politically, but they kind of have to in a response to the number of hostile neighbours surrounding them. I understand their situation, its merely when they use weapons of war which are banned by the UN, I then disagree with them. As a European, to win me over, they need to have the morale high ground, but right now, both sides are as bad as each other.



Rath said:
MrBubbles said:
Rath said:
MrBubbles said:
 


if not for israel taking those lands there wouldnt even be a chance at a state of palestine.  it would still be jordan and egypt.    its a small minority in israel that think the entire land should be israel.  its a small minority in the territories that dont want the entire land to be palestine.   abbas plays lip service to the idea sometimes and then says things that clearly demonstrate he doesnt it.    the right of return wont happen and the jews will never give back the western wall in east jerusalem, so those demands cannot be on the table of they want any deal with israel.   abbas made recent comments backing off the right of return but they still demand east jerusalem.   how can things even get off the ground with an impossible demand?

I think if Israel was properly willing to negotiate (which Netanyahu is very much not) with Fatah then I believe the situation could be resolved. Simply however Israel will have to compromise on Jerusalem - the East of Jerusalem is Palestinian and what Israel is trying to do is annex it. This should be condemned.

In any negotiation Israel will have to compromise as well as Palestine, they need to meet in the middle. Your comments seem to indicate that you think Palestine should accept all of Israels demands, this is not reasonable.

east jerusalem is not palestinian.  what an odd comment from you.   how can you even imagine the jews would give up control of their holiest site and give it to someone who they cant even trust?   at best you could make an argument for a UN controlled city, but its not like the UN has been able to protect israel from its enemies so far.

there has never even been a state of palestine, mind you. 

Jerusalem for a large portion of its history has not been Jewish, but majority Muslim. Several of the holiest Muslim sites also exist in Jerusalem.

I think having either state have complete control over the Temple Mount and the adjacent holy sites (Al-Aqsa, Dome of the Rock, Wailing Wall) is a recipe for disaster actually and some sort of communual control over them is required.

 

However East Jerusalem as a city is largely Muslim in populace and is internationally recognised as not being part of Israel.

Perhaps an international city is a solution to the Jerusalem question, but in my opinion it is either that or the city being divided into two. There simply isn't going to be a long term peace that involves Israel having Jerusalem as its undivided capital.


i just wanted to note that my opinion on israels capital is that it should be tel aviv  and that i personally couldnt care if all of jerusalem was bulldozed tomorrow (probably be best for everyone if it was)



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

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Kasz216 said:

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing(more radical aprts) and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.


To say that other countries are no longer supporting Israel "because the US does" is a very illogical, ignorant, and borderline insulting stance. To say this is to denounce the foreign policy of said established states, which I seriously doubt would be to just "be against the United States".

Use a bit of Occam's Razor here. Why would Israel, formally in huge support, be losing support? Because the actions they take each time become more and more extreme, and conflict with more foreign policies of said states. To say that states' motive is to be against the US is saying that these states are too stupid to develop any foreign policy.



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kain_kusanagi said:
Israel has a right to exist just like any other nation.

The only thing that would make Israel hating Muslims happy would be the death of all Israelis.

Since that is out of the question, the only thing the free nations of the world can do is continue to support Israel. It's not a perfect country, but it wants peace.


If they keep firing on others knowing that they have the US to back them up they never will stop. It goes both ways, its just that the muslims out  number them.



JazzB1987 said:


Lets say you live in the USA and then someone just gives 50% of the territory to russia or china. And then russians or chinese force you out of the rest of the 50%.  I  doubt you would be happy.

Well, that depends on what 50% of the country we're talking about, and where the people who lived there go.

To be serious, though, the whole situation in the Israel area is messed up. I would say that I wish America could just step back and let the situation resolve itself, but I don't think that's any kind of "solution." Ideally, the UN should step in and set everyone straight, but that's probably not going to happen. I sure am glad making these kinds of decisions isn't my job, though.



MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles said:
Mummelmann said:
MrBubbles; so the holocaust excuses everything Israel does to someone else? That's an old and weak argument.


no one made that argument but you can continue to delude youself if you wish to be an ignoramus.


I hardly consider myself the ignorant party in this discussion. Insults aside; it was your intention to raise sympathy and have people look away from Israeli terror actions by posting that image, that much was clear. Its justification. Two wrongs does make a right etc.


it was pretty clear even to the person i posted the image to, that my problem was making comparisons between the this situation and that of the holocaust.   do you know why?   probably not...for reasons i stated already.   

are you even that much better than me for what i said earlier, i don't think you are not at all, for what you and the photo said, lets accept we both went a bit too far on that one. You clearly believe in an "eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth".

But I still think Israel goes too far itself. Palestine injured a few people with a missile, while Israel retaliates with a full strike killing 100's of INNOCENT citizens. don't you see a problem there? That sort of reaction is terrorism but somehow it is acceptable for them to do this. And this sort of thing has been going on for years, seriously how many people on both sides must die before a solution is made?



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fordy said:
Kasz216 said:

Eh, it's less "Fair Share" more "The US supports Israel."

If the US didn't support Israel... like say this exact situation happened elsewhere, practically no country would support Palestine because they would see it as a legitamization of "seperatists".  It's the same reason countries like... Spain don't recognize Kosovo.

Most of the world supports Palsestine because the United States supports Israel, there is in general a large alliance of countries that vote the opposite of the US  on every measure from Israel to global kitten appreciation day.

 

Now Europe.  Europe's backing off of Israel is actually a pretty interesting long term political development that began with a strange marriage of the Europeon Leftwing(more radical aprts) and Muslim Immigrants.  The Leftwing pretty much ignoring some of the more problematic issues from the immigration such as woman's rights for the voter support.


To say that other countries are no longer supporting Israel "because the US does" is a very illogical, ignorant, and borderline insulting stance. To say this is to denounce the foreign policy of said established states, which I seriously doubt would be to just "be against the United States".

Use a bit of Occam's Razor here. Why would Israel, formally in huge support, be losing support? Because the actions they take each time become more and more extreme, and conflict with more foreign policies of said states. To say that states' motive is to be against the US is saying that these states are too stupid to develop any foreign policy.

That's not what Occam's razor is... not even remotely.

The nations I am talking about never widely supported Israel... most in fact mostly recognized Palestine as a country in the late 1980's.

 

Support has really only been slipping in Europe due to political realties on the ground and voting demographics.


Israel's actions even currently as in during this war, are a lot less extreme then back when they had Europeon support are you kidding me?

Look up some of the ridiculious stuff Israel did back when they had full backing unwavering Europeon Support.

The last 6 years or so have been moderate in comparison. 



fordy said:
MrBubbles said:

they arent a state so it doesnt matter if someone or a group of people says they are.  ( they do not have the function, form or capabilities of a state.  they do not and cannot meet the criteria for a state without a resolution with israel.   if they acted like adults then all the pressure would be on israel to concede to a reasonable settlement.   when they behave like menaces then the focus will always be on their own improvement)


The same could be said about the United States. After all, look how they became a state.

"they arent a state so it doesnt matter if someone or a group of people says they are.  ( they do not have the function, form or capabilities of a state.  they do not and cannot meet the criteria for a state without a resolution with England.   if they acted like adults then all the pressure would be on England to concede to a reasonable settlement.   when they behave like menaces then the focus will always be on their own improvement)"

actually thats not at all comparable. honestly i cant even imagine how you might be percieving the situations as to grasp any comparison... :/



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur