From what I've played of both, I actually prefer All-Stars.

Yeah was thinking similar to you with 1v1 but this video shows that it works pretty good. Ratchet and Jak are both range (shooting) characters yet the fight seems to work just fine. Same goes for slow verse fast characters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sWVfnyZIxU

Also these are the developers of the game and even they miss supers some times. While watching the video it makes sense to build up 2s and 3s even if you only get one kill because that kill has a higher chance of sticking. For example when doing stock and you have three lives while your oppoinent has 1 it makes way more sence for you to build up a level three.

@O_o

"yes you did"

What I meant by "it's not a matter of opinion" is that the mechanics will shape how the metagame functions. I could be wrong about what the mechanics mean for the metagame. All I'm trying to say is that it's not just random chance which modes would work better, it's based on the way the developers made the game. Course, I could be wrong about how the mechanics of the game play out, but that's my opinion so far.

"you really shouldn't use kratos because he truly shows that you have no idea what you're talking about to anyone who played the beta

most of kratos's attacks are extremely fast like his chain grap, regular chain swipes, cestus swipes etc

but of course with any fighting game some attacks are slower than others and lend themselves to certain situations but as M.U.G.E.N said that doesn't mean the faster attacks miraculously become useless because there are also slower attacks ina characters arsensal

furthermore you claim to know which modes are best for this game based on characters' attacks after having only played one character?

that doesn't make much sense at all"

Faster attacks don't become useless when there are slower attacks in your arsenal, they become useless when you have no reliable way of approaching a character. Usually in a fighting game, you'll approach via the air, or a dash after an opponent leaves themselves open. Kratos' air attacks don't seem suitable for approaching, his charge is too slow to close in on his opponents, and the combination of those factors could leave him in trouble against a lot of the cast.

I've played other characters, but Kratos was the one I spend most time with. Meant to get to the others but my PS3 sadly died. Most of his arsenel isn't that fast except for his grounded chain attacks and I think his neutral square in the air. His projectile attacks are reasonably slow, and he doesn't have any fast movement options. I think he'd have a lot of trouble approaching other characters in a 1v1 setting, and I see that problem with a lot of characters.

Oh and it's called speculation ^_^. I'm guessing what they'll be based on my initial impressions. As the metagame evolves it will be interesting to see if the things I've predicted come to pass or not. People seem awfully sensitive about this game.

"tbh i'm not surprised that the guy who selectively picks kratos slowest moves to generalise what his whole moveset is like would say something like that

but again anyone who has played as or against kratos should know that again that makes no sense"

Ok, so you're Kratos and the opponent is... let's say... Raiden. He's running from you. How do you plan on safely approaching him in a 1v1 match?

"1v1 starts at 19:45"

Thank you for the link. Check out the second match with Big Daddy and Toro. Big Daddy seems nearly 100% reliant on his two tackling moves to get close to his opponent. In kind of reminds me of MvC3 a bit with characters like Wolverine or to a lesser extent Trish. Of course, Big Daddy doesn't have high low mixups, crossovers, or assists to work with, and the overall physics of PSAllStars don't lend themselves well to keeping up pressure with a lot of moves that cancel into one another.

So, if someone can find a way to shut down Big Daddy's tackle attacks, where does that leave him? What about characters like Kratos who don't have a fast movement option like that? 1v1 fighting games are based on a risk/reward system of attacking/defending. With All Stars, I'm not seeing a large variety of approach options, which doesn't seem all that conducive to a 1v1 metagame.

So overall the game just seems more tuned to a FFA fighting experience. That's not an insult or anything, as I think that they've made a lot of good choices to make the game work as a FFA such as the three level KO system, the way air attacks work (mostly long/large hitboxes), the dashing moves a lot of characters have to get them quickly into the action when two players are engaged, the way characters like Jak and Ratchet could easily fill a screen with clutter, etc. These choices are really good for a FFA game, but maybe not as good for a 1v1 game. As per the usual disclaimer, I could be wrong, but I think that's how the mechanics will shape the game.

@ Joe the Bro-  The Cole vs Drake match actually looked pretty nice.  Evil Cole seemed to have a few decent options to get in against Drake which made for a pretty interesting match.  If the other characters play like that, I could be totally wrong in what I've said.

On the flip side, the Big Daddy vs Toro match was the opposite.  It seemed like all Big Daddy could do/wanted to do was charge at Toro.  Maybe the Toro player just sucked, but he seemed to have no viable approach options aside from trying to kick Big Daddy in the air.  A lot of characters seem to have slow/limited approach options which could be a problemo.

As for the Ratchet/Jak match, I don't know what to think of that.  It seems like one of those matches in fighting games that are just painfully boring to play on either side like Samus vs Sonic in Brawl.  I'm more interested in seeing how projectile characters like Jak would perform against non projectile characters.  I can see Jak vs Kratos in 1v1 being very lobsided towards Jak, but I could see characters like Raiden and Nariko tearing Jak apart.  In general I think characters like Raiden are going to be pretty dominant in the game based on what I've seen.

the mechanics shape how the metagame functions? isn't that obvious?

"they become useless when you have no reliable way of approaching a character"

you mean tilting your analog stick or pressing your dpad towards your opponent won't get you there?

i mean up until now that's how i've been playing games...

should i want my character to move in a particular direction... i use the built in walk function

"the combination of those factors could leave him in trouble against a lot of the cast."

kratos was by far the dominent character of the beta...

"Ok, so you're Kratos and the opponent is... let's say... Raiden. He's running from you. How do you plan on safely approaching him in a 1v1 match?"

i don't know?

as i mentioned before maybe i'd press the stick in his direction?

if he tries to stop me, what can i say? i guess i'd attack him since that's the point of the game?

that's my suggestion, what would you do if your opponent is moving away from you in a fighting game?

"So, if someone can find a way to shut down Big Daddy's tackle attacks, where does that leave him? "

are tackles the only moves in his arsenal?

did the devs map tackles to all of the 12 move options available for him? 

"With All Stars, I'm not seeing a large variety of approach options"

can youy give me examples of "approach options" from other fighting games?

are you talking about flying, teleportation, gliding etc?

"the mechanics shape how the metagame functions? isn't that obvious?"

Yup.  So we agree then.

"you mean tilting your analog stick or pressing your dpad towards your opponent won't get you there?

i mean up until now that's how i've been playing games...

should i want my character to move in a particular direction... i use the built in walk function"

When talking about approach options in a fighting game, it's implied that you mean safe/reliable approach options.  In general, you can't just walk towards an opponent and expect to break through their defenses, because they can just walk the other way/block/jump around you, etc.   If you're talking about casual level play, then sure, just walk towards them.  If we're talking about PSAll Stars Battle Royale as a competitive fighter, then walking towards your opponent is not a viable strategy.  Things don't tend to be that simple at high level play.

"kratos was by far the dominent character of the beta..."

Right, and the beta was a FFA/2v2 right?  In 1v1 matches, I think things will be different.  His major advantage seemed to be his excellent lvl 3 super, and his large range.  His lvl 3 super will be less useful in 1v1, and his range will be less dominant.  People will be able to stay out of it more easily if they only have to worry about Kratos.

"i don't know?

as i mentioned before maybe i'd press the stick in his direction?

if he tries to stop me, what can i say? i guess i'd attack him since that's the point of the game?

that's my suggestion, what would you do if your opponent is moving away from you in a fighting game?"

Ah, if only things were that simple.  In fighting games, that's usually what seperated viable characters from non viable characters.  Take Hulk for example in UMVC3.  He's powerful and can KO a lot of characters in one combo, but that doesn't mean anything because he has no reliable way to hit them.  His only options to approach are his gamma charge, which leaves him at a frame disadvantage, his Heavy punch, which is highly predictable, and jump attacks which are slow and telegraphed.  So, he sucks because you can't just walk into someone and punch them.  Other characters like Vergil or Wesker can teleport, have tons of safe pokes, airdashes, and the like.  These are good approach options that can reliably open people up.

The reason that MK is so dominant in Smash is because most characters can't approach him safely.  If you just walk towards him and attack, you're likely to take more damage than you deal.  His combination of hovering in the air, large hitboxes and fast startup on his air attacks attacks, and his ledgecamping abilities means he shuts down half the cast.  Walking towards him just isn't an option.

"are tackles the only moves in his arsenal?

did the devs map tackles to all of the 12 move options available for him?"

No, but it's his only option that moves him quickly in the direction of his opponent.  He could stand in a corner punching the ground or swinging his drill, but that's not going to help him against an opponent who is intent on avoiding him.  I'm running on the assumption that the metagame will be focussed on the first to three kills mode with some sort of time limit (I don't know if there is a time limit option on those stock matches, but if their isn't, the metagame will struggle to develop.)

"With All Stars, I'm not seeing a large variety of approach options"

can youy give me examples of "approach options" from other fighting games?"

Flying, teleportation, gliding, are all examples of approach options.  In Smash Brothers we have dashing, dash grabs, and dash attacks as well.  MvC 3 has dashing as well, and in particular wavedashing (which is also available in a differenct method in Melee).  There's shorthopping SHFFLing in Melee (short hop, fast fall, l cancel).  It could also be something character specific, like Ryu's light air hurricant kick in MvC 3, or Big Daddy's tackle.  Jump attacks usually work for approaching, IF the attack can be cancelled into another move OR if the animation ends before hitting the ground.  In games like Street Fighter 4, you have things like cross ups, where you basically jump around opponents to kick them in the back, but this only works in games where you have directional guards. You also have high low mixups, where you force an opponent to guess between an attack he has to block high or low, but that doesn't work in games with omni-directional guards.  There are also some glitchy/physic exploits that can be used to approach an opponent.  Examples of this are Squirtle's hydroplaning in Smash, the aforementioned wavedashing, Snake dashing, and DACUS (dashed cancelled up smash attacks) in brawl.  There are also things like airdashing, double jumps or Magneto's Triangle jumps in MVC2.  Focus cancels in SF4, super aromr attacks, and so on so forth.

If you have a game where there are numerous approach options that are hard to defend against, like UMVC3 or Melee, you have a very fast paced and aggressive game, with a few exceptions like any time Morrigan gets on the screen.  If you have a game with fewer reliable approach options, like SF4 or Brawl, you typically have a slower paced game that focuses on spacing, pokes, and footsies.

In PSAllStars, I don't see a great deal of approach options. Even less than in a game like SF4 and Brawl.  This might change as people get better and play more creatively, but as of now the options seem limited to a couple of dashing attacks for each character.   This isn't a huge deal in 2v2 or FFA, where characters aren't solely focused on you, but it presents more of an obstacle in 1v1 games.  So thats why I think this game will work better in FFA (or perhaps 2v2) than 1v1.  Again that's totally not a knock on the game.  Like I said a lot of the choices that I think won't make it a great 1v1 game are also the things that might help make it an excellent FFA/2v2 game.

" In general, you can't just walk towards an opponent and expect to break through their defenses"

how could i forget? 

walk towards them then attack them like in street fighter, mortal kombat, soul caliber etc etc etc

"His major advantage seemed to be his excellent lvl 3 super"

when i played as kratos i always won and i never activated his level 3 or his level 2

his level 3 is not at all necessary if you know what you're doing

"The reason that MK is so dominant in Smash is because most characters can't approach him safely. "

well its fortunate then that no character shown so far, for this game appears to be that broken

"it's his only option that moves him quickly in the direction of his opponent. "

moving quickly towards your opponent isn't always necessary especially when one of your moves can freeze them in place

"Flying, teleportation, gliding, are all examples of approach options.  In Smash Brothers we have dashing, dash grabs, and dash attacks as well.  MvC 3 has dashing as well"

the reason i asked is because obviously conventionally with fighting games you walk or hop towards your opponent and attack

you have nothing like flying, teleportation etc in games like ( edit : mortal combat actually has teleportation i mean't tekken ), street fighter, soul calibur etc

and they are all 1v1 games

generally you walk or run towards your opponent and attack them

i say this all based on your assumption that the characters in playstation all stars don't have many traversal techniques

which imo is wrong btw, for example toro has teleportation and sliding techniques ( maybe even more traversal techniques that i'm unaware of ) that you obviously weren't aware of before

then again i can't blame you, the player didn't show them

double post

Great post explaining your concerns. Going off of approaches and the like you seem to prefer weak fast characters over slow strong ones, correct? In that case lots of the characters will be great for you, just not Big Daddy and Sir Daniel. In 1v1 some characters will just not be worth it. I agree that 100% of the time a good sackboy player would beat a good big daddy.

Seems Heihachi feels the same way I do about DINO.

"how could i forget? 

walk towards them then attack them like in street fighter, mortal kombat, soul caliber etc etc etc"

I take it you're tearing up the tournament scene with this amazing strategy?  I'll go into the shoryuken and smashboards forums where they have dozens and dozens of pages discussing how to approach certain characters and say "No you guys are doing this wrong.  Just walk forward and attack."

"moving quickly towards your opponent isn't always necessary especially when one of your moves can freeze them in place"

It's necessary if you're behind in the match.  How does dropping a puddle in front of him help against an evasive character who's trying to stay away?

"
well its fortunate then that no character shown so far, for this game appears to be that broken"

I was just trying to show the importance of approach/defense options.  We won't know if any characters are broken till at least a year into the metagame.

"the reason i asked is because obviously conventionally with fighting games you walk or hop towards your opponent and attack

you have nothing like flying, teleportation etc in games like mortal combat, street fighter, soul calibur etc

and they are all 1v1 games

generally you walk or run towards your opponent and attack them

i say this all based on your assumption that the characters in playstation all stars don't have many traversal techniques"

No offense, but you seem like a casual fighting game player, so maybe you're looking at this from a different persepective.  You seem to be describing a very simplistic level of play.

I'm not an expert on MK (but you do have teleporting.  Just ask Raiden).  But Street Fighter 4 has a decent set of approach options.  Air attacks are often useful for approaching, you have high/low mixups,  dashing, focus canceled attacks, and crossups for starters. There are also a lot of character specific options such as hurrican kicks, air fireballs, Vipers fire kick thing, Cammy's Hooligan combination, Bison's Head stomp/psycho crusher/scissors kick/teleport, Rufus's Mesiah kick, and so on.  Oh, and SF4 does have teleporting.  Bison, Dhalsim, and Akuma can all do it.  I think Oni may be able to as well, I forget.

Also, Street Fighter 4 is a also a smaller more enclosed game, so it's hard to really get too far from your opponent.  PASBR is a larger games, with more platforms, universal double jumping, airdodging and other elements which should make running from an opponent more difficult. In other words, I think PSASBR may make it easier to evade than to attack. 

Soul Calibur is a different beast altogether because it's a 3D fighter.

"i say this all based on your assumption that the characters in playstation all stars don't have many traversal techniques

which imo is wrong btw, for example toro has teleportation and sliding techniques ( maybe even more traversal techniques that i'm unaware of ) that you obviously weren't aware of before

then again i can't blame you, the player didn't show them"

Traversal techniques are not the same think as approach options.  Take M. Bison from Street Fighter 4 for instance.  His teleport gets you across the screen very quickly, but you can't attack out of it, so it won't help you score a hit.  It's only there for defensive purposes.  Approaching is traversing in a way that puts you in an advantageous offensive position.

I haven't seen all of the characters yet, or all of their options, so I could be completely wrong about a lot of this.  Evil Cole showed a surprising amount of versatility.  Like I said, I'm not trying to pass judgement on the game, just give my impressions based on what I've seen/heard/played.