By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - US Senate candidate: Pregnancy from rape can be ‘something that God intended to happen’

appolose said:
Torillian said:
appolose said:

Granted, but I would say it's not just her taking on the burden of this life; she also has to actively terminate it.  It differs from forced charity in that way: the fetus has no choice in being there either, and can do nothing about it, so the fetus itself is not violating her own rights.  Whereas, the abortion is a choice, and, therefore,  would be violating the fetus' rights.


She doesn't have to actively terminate it, she could just continue her life without consideration for it and it'd probably die naturally.  If she was a smoker and/or drinker and didn't quit, or she continue having an active/athletic lifestyle for too long.  The reason abortion is chosen is that it's a clinical procedure and is therefore safer for the mother, but the important part is that this isn't something that she can deal with without changing how she previously lived, so it's definitely forced charity.  The fetus is not violating her right by choice (it doesn't have any yet) but it is by its existence.

You're right, the fetus is not being given a choice in this matter, but unfortunately I can't ask the fetus to weigh in on the matter, and if I could I'd likely have a different viewpoint on the whole thing.  So without that to go on I think the decision should be left to the conscious person most affected by the decision: the rape victim.  


Any of those actions she takes are known to risk or cause death to the fetus, so it would be effectively the same as actively terminating it, though.  And I was referring to charity in terms of participating vs. not participating.  That is, if I don't give someone food, for example, my lack of action is not what caused them to starve to death.  Whereas, in this case, the lack is exactly what causes it.  

And the contention one might raise with that is that, either way, someone has to give up something.  And one of them cannot choose in the matter, so it would be a violation of its rights to choose for it.

Not sure where we're going with the first bit.  Being pregnant is an active process in itself, so the idea that it must be actively terminated seems immaterial because it can be passively terminated in the means I mentioned before.  

I'm sorry but the second part doesn't make logical sense, why does it make more sense to violate the rights of the one that could choose over the one that can't?  If you know one of the parties can choose while the other can't why would you not try to give someone in this situation a choice?



...

Around the Network
Torillian said:
appolose said:
Torillian said:

She doesn't have to actively terminate it, she could just continue her life without consideration for it and it'd probably die naturally.  If she was a smoker and/or drinker and didn't quit, or she continue having an active/athletic lifestyle for too long.  The reason abortion is chosen is that it's a clinical procedure and is therefore safer for the mother, but the important part is that this isn't something that she can deal with without changing how she previously lived, so it's definitely forced charity.  The fetus is not violating her right by choice (it doesn't have any yet) but it is by its existence.

You're right, the fetus is not being given a choice in this matter, but unfortunately I can't ask the fetus to weigh in on the matter, and if I could I'd likely have a different viewpoint on the whole thing.  So without that to go on I think the decision should be left to the conscious person most affected by the decision: the rape victim.  


Any of those actions she takes are known to risk or cause death to the fetus, so it would be effectively the same as actively terminating it, though.  And I was referring to charity in terms of participating vs. not participating.  That is, if I don't give someone food, for example, my lack of action is not what caused them to starve to death.  Whereas, in this case, the lack is exactly what causes it.  

And the contention one might raise with that is that, either way, someone has to give up something.  And one of them cannot choose in the matter, so it would be a violation of its rights to choose for it.

Not sure where we're going with the first bit.  Being pregnant is an active process in itself, so the idea that it must be actively terminated seems immaterial because it can be passively terminated in the means I mentioned before.  

I'm sorry but the second part doesn't make logical sense, why does it make more sense to violate the rights of the one that could choose over the one that can't?  If you know one of the parties can choose while the other can't why would you not try to give someone in this situation a choice?

Sorry, I mean that, if she pursues activities that she knows usually end up terminating a pregnancy, that seems to be effectively the same as terminating.

As for the argument here on who should give up rights, I posit that it makes more sense for her to give up her rights than for her to take someone else rights, being as they are not her rights.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
RolStoppable said:
appolose said:

Any of those actions she takes are known to risk or cause death to the fetus, so it would be effectively the same as actively terminating it, though.  And I was referring to charity in terms of participating vs. not participating.  That is, if I don't give someone food, for example, my lack of action is not what caused them to starve to death.  Whereas, in this case, the lack is exactly what causes it.  

And the contention one might raise with that is that, either way, someone has to give up something.  And one of them cannot choose in the matter, so it would be a violation of its rights to choose for it.

Your role as devil's advocate disgusts me.

It's what I do!

I mean I advocate, not disgust.  



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:

Sorry, I mean that, if she pursues activities that she knows usually end up terminating a pregnancy, that seems to be effectively the same as terminating.

As for the argument here on who should give up rights, I posit that it makes more sense for her to give up her rights than for her to take someone else rights, being as they are not her rights.

But the fetus would be taking her rights as well in that scenario so it seems like an endless cycle on that one.

his isn't a woman giving up her rights, that's what she might do if given the choice, this is a governing body taking away her rights.  What she should do is different to what we should force her to do.  



...

Torillian said:
DélioPT said:

It`s also about dignity and respect. A baby cannot live without the support too.
No human should be treated less because he can`t fully express his humanity. Human life is valuable since inception.

No, we don`t know what will come out of her carrying out the pregnancy, like we don`t know how people will handle every other problem in their lives. What we know is that when a life is terminated, that`s it. It`s a certainty that it`s all over.
You are right, i don`t know exactly what she needs to overcome, so i`ll just say what people need to overcome their problems: strength, love, trust, support, etc. I`d add God, but like everything it`s up to people to open themselves to faith.
What i do know, is that there`s nothing that God gives us that we can`t handle it, even the hardest things. What we must always avoid is basing actions on suffering. Because those are the realities we choose, for whatever happens in our lifes.

But a baby can be transferred to another parent, that isn't true of a fetus.  Human life is valuable, but so is the life and freedom of the raped woman, and I've decided to err on her side for this instance because I believe it minimizes human suffering.

I don't believe in god, therefore the idea that anything he gives us can be handled doesn't really matter to me.  The only person who gave anything in this instance was a rapist.  You shouldn't force another problem on the rape victim with the idea that she'll overcome it, or be stronger for it, that shouldn't be your choice to make.  

 

So you treasure more freedom of choice than life itself? As it is obvious i don`t agree. As they say, let`s agree to disagree.
I`m not trying to force anything on anyone, just giving my opinion.
But in reality, you don`t actually know if it minimizes suffering or not. You think it might, but it could have an even worse effect that is making her live the fact that she killed someone to not suffer more.
What abortion gives is a certainty: life is over and some innocent life payed the price. And that no one can take back.
By carrying the child things can chance for the better. There`s a chance. With abortion what is done is done and can`t be undone.



Around the Network
RolStoppable said:
appolose said:

Any of those actions she takes are known to risk or cause death to the fetus, so it would be effectively the same as actively terminating it, though.  And I was referring to charity in terms of participating vs. not participating.  That is, if I don't give someone food, for example, my lack of action is not what caused them to starve to death.  Whereas, in this case, the lack is exactly what causes it.  

And the contention one might raise with that is that, either way, someone has to give up something.  And one of them cannot choose in the matter, so it would be a violation of its rights to choose for it.

Your role as devil's advocate disgusts me.

supporting the killing of unborn babies is much more closely aligned to what the devil is advocating.



bluesinG said:
kain_kusanagi said:
bluesinG said:
kain_kusanagi said:

You guys all need to calm down. It's clear that the act of rape is not what he was talking about. What he was talking about was the gift of life. That something as wonderful as a child can result from such a terrible thing as rape was his point. Rape is a horrible thing, but the life that is created is innocent and pure. The child concieved should not be regarded as a byproduct to discard, but instead loved as any other unborn child deserves.

Anyone that thinks the man believes God likes rape is either an idiot or a full on hate troll.

I don't think that Mourdock believes God likes rape. I think he believes that when a rape results in pregnancy, that pregnancy is "part of God's plan". That's what he said, and he's stood by that comment.

I disagree with Mourdock about that; I don't think that God intends women to become pregnant as the result of rape. Do you?

No I don't and that's not what he said. He didn't say it's God's plan. Here's his full quote: "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God," Mourdock said. "And I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It is perfectly clear to me that Mourdock is saying the life created from the rape is sacred, not the act of rape.

He said it badly, but Let's break it down:

"life is that gift from God"

"horrible situation of rape"

"when life begins"

"God intended to happen."

What's he is saying is life is a gift from God even when it comes from rape. He's not saying God puts rapists in the path of women to create life, and he isn't saying that God's plan is for women to be raped. He is only talking about what God intents for the child. God loves all children regardless of how they were conceived.

Here is his explanation:

"What I said was, in answering the question form my position of faith, I said I believe that God creates life. I believe that as wholly and as fully as I can believe it. That God creates life," Mourdock said. "Are you trying to suggest that somehow I think that God pre-ordained rape? No, I don't think that. That's sick. Twisted. That's not even close to what I said. What I said is that God creates life."

People are taking this man's words and extrapolating negative intent for political ends. In my opinion they are intentionally misrepresenting him, while knowing what he meant isn't even news worthy.

Again, I don't think Mourdock is saying "God intends rapes to happen." I think he's saying "given that a rape has happened, if the woman gets pregnant from that rape, then God intended that pregnancy to happen." In other words, God doesn't have control over whether the rape happens, but He does have control over whether the woman gets pregnant.

I strongly disagree with that position, because I can't imagine that God intends for 30,000 raped women to become impregnated each year, in the USA alone. Do you really believe He intends for all of those raped women to become impregnated?


No I don't and that's not what he said.



RolStoppable said:
killerzX said:
RolStoppable said:

Your role as devil's advocate disgusts me.

supporting the killing of unborn babies is much more closely aligned to what the devil is advocating.

I am a sexist, so I quite like some of the religious values (i.e. women being inferior to men), but morally it just seems wrong to tell a raped and pregnant woman: "You had bad luck and were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Deal with it."

well im not religuous, but i am Christian (which is irrelevent here anyway), and i dont view women as inferior, nor does my Faith. but other religions certainly do.

and your quote is quite inacurate. people are saying, there were 2 victims here, you and your baby. both of you are innocent, especially the baby. So why would you punish the child for the crimes of its father. it would certainly make more sense to, you know, actually punish the rapist.



kain_kusanagi said:
bluesinG said:
kain_kusanagi said:
bluesinG said:
kain_kusanagi said:

You guys all need to calm down. It's clear that the act of rape is not what he was talking about. What he was talking about was the gift of life. That something as wonderful as a child can result from such a terrible thing as rape was his point. Rape is a horrible thing, but the life that is created is innocent and pure. The child concieved should not be regarded as a byproduct to discard, but instead loved as any other unborn child deserves.

Anyone that thinks the man believes God likes rape is either an idiot or a full on hate troll.

I don't think that Mourdock believes God likes rape. I think he believes that when a rape results in pregnancy, that pregnancy is "part of God's plan". That's what he said, and he's stood by that comment.

I disagree with Mourdock about that; I don't think that God intends women to become pregnant as the result of rape. Do you?

No I don't and that's not what he said. He didn't say it's God's plan. Here's his full quote: "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God," Mourdock said. "And I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

It is perfectly clear to me that Mourdock is saying the life created from the rape is sacred, not the act of rape.

He said it badly, but Let's break it down:

"life is that gift from God"

"horrible situation of rape"

"when life begins"

"God intended to happen."

What's he is saying is life is a gift from God even when it comes from rape. He's not saying God puts rapists in the path of women to create life, and he isn't saying that God's plan is for women to be raped. He is only talking about what God intents for the child. God loves all children regardless of how they were conceived.

Here is his explanation:

"What I said was, in answering the question form my position of faith, I said I believe that God creates life. I believe that as wholly and as fully as I can believe it. That God creates life," Mourdock said. "Are you trying to suggest that somehow I think that God pre-ordained rape? No, I don't think that. That's sick. Twisted. That's not even close to what I said. What I said is that God creates life."

People are taking this man's words and extrapolating negative intent for political ends. In my opinion they are intentionally misrepresenting him, while knowing what he meant isn't even news worthy.

Again, I don't think Mourdock is saying "God intends rapes to happen." I think he's saying "given that a rape has happened, if the woman gets pregnant from that rape, then God intended that pregnancy to happen." In other words, God doesn't have control over whether the rape happens, but He does have control over whether the woman gets pregnant.

I strongly disagree with that position, because I can't imagine that God intends for 30,000 raped women to become impregnated each year, in the USA alone. Do you really believe He intends for all of those raped women to become impregnated?


No I don't and that's not what he said.

But that *is* what he said. That God doesn't decide whether the rapes happen, but God does decide whether the woman gets pregnant from the rape.

That's what Mourdock elieves, and I disagree with him.



killerzX said:
bluesinG said:
killerzX said:
bluesinG said:
wfz said:
bluesinG said:
killerzX said:
 

so 30 seconds before the baby is born, it is a clump of cells, and can be terminated?

while its headed down the birthing-canal, it can have scissor like instruments, stab into its spinal cord, breaking its neck, killing the child, but its not human?

but if they were to do it just 5 seconds later, it would be murder of a human?

I believe that before it is born, it is a fetus. After it is born, it is a baby.

As for whether and when to abort a fetus, I believe that should be the mother's choice, not something mandated by the government.

What magically changes in those split seconds that makes the fetus have rights as a human baby? I don't see where your logic is coming from unless its based on nothing but pure convenience and feelings.

What changes is that the fetus leaves the woman's body, enters the world, and begins to breathe. I am the father of a 13-month-old daughter, and I can tell you that moment is a big bleepin' deal.

but the split second before your daughter was born, she wasnt human, while she is headed down your wifes birth canal getting delivered, its not human? but once it exits it is? what about if the baby is half way out and takes a breath. is it half human? what if only the head is out? is only the head human?

fetus: "an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth"

baby: "an extremely young child; especially : infant"

Before my daughter was born, she was a fetus. After she was born, she was a baby. I believe that the moment of birth is when someone becomes a person. And I believe that pregnant women, not the government, should make the decision of whether or not to terminate a fetus.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baby


that is an astonishingly arbitrary definition you have of what a human is.

i know what a fetus is, just as i know what a adult is. but what you are esentially saying is, im not a human, im an adult.

fetus= unborn baby human

baby= new born human

teen= young human

etc.

all human, all deserve to live.

Have you watched a woman give birth, and then watched the baby take their first breath and open their eyes for the first time? I have, and I can tell you that those moments represent a *huge* change.

Having witnessed that change, I believe that an unborn fetus is still a person-in-the-making, and that a born child is a person. I can understand how others might believe that personhood is achieved earlier, but I cannot understand how someone can believe that birth is just an "arbitrary" moment. It is a truly miraculous moment, and it's a huge change. Please tell me you understand that.