Im a centrist and i didnt like the debates

Could be.  That just seems like a bad strategy to me though.

I think that's just more who Paul Ryan is...

he's never seemed like a fierce debator so much as a "These are the numbers, this is why we gotta do this" guy.

He never really restated the numbers, just expectating people to understand he was right, even after Biden tried to bury stuff.  Like the Afghanistan question.

For some reason over the last few days I was able to quote people... but now all of a sudden in the last hour when I try to quote someone I can't type in the text box...

@Nightdragon "This week with george stephanopolis' round table" is all I could think about while watching it.

On topic, From what I saw Ryan won but apperantly that was after "Bidens red bull wore off" as a tweet put it.

I would have to give the slight edge to Ryan. But I honestly believe the low expectations for Biden are why people think it could be considered a tie or even that Biden won. I will say Biden did much better than Obama, but that didn't take much. A big negative for him, though, is he was very rude during the debate. It's one thing to interrupt a few times in the entire 90 minutes, but to do it just about everytime your opponent is speaking is unacceptable (some people say it was ~80 times). Then there's the seemingly uncontrollable smirking (sometimes accompanied by laughter). I'm sure they wanted him to be aggressive to compensate for Obama, but he overcompensated. Sure, being aggressive and rude toward your opponent might get your base riled up, but it's not going to help with the Independents (which Obama is already losing) and the undecided voters.

On a quick side note, Biden's answer on Iran was laughable. To paraphrase, "Sure Iran has enough material to make a nuclear bomb, but they don't have a bomb to stick the material in." Thanks Joe, I feel much safer now. That's just as bad as Obama's "look at how tiny Iran is, they can't hurt anyone."

One thing I do fault Ryan on is not explaining the tax issue as well as Romney did. He only mentioned closing tax loopholes as a way to make up for the loses in government revenue. Romney, on the other hand, explained that when you lower taxes you stimulate the economy, which in turn creates more jobs, which then creates more taxpayers and government revenue.

As for the moderator, at the beginning I started to think she was pretty fair. But, near the middle she started going after Ryan like she was a reporter interviewing him and trying to catch him on something, not a moderator. For a second there, Biden and her were both grilling Ryan at the same time. I don't know if she got a little talking to in her ear, or if she just caught herself, because she returned to her style from the beginning of the debate.

Meh, for what it's worth, I consdier myself a centrist.  I just think we need to get rid of all the awful shitty socialist laws in place, to replace them with better more effective and cost efficent socalist laws in the future.

For example, replace the 60+ Welfare programs we have now that have varying confusing ass requirements that you often have to apply for seperatly, with a 1 stop, tax related negative income tax adjuted for where you live... with no work requirement.

As it is, you'll never get democrats to admit their current prorams are wrong.  Or Republicans to admit other programs could work better.   So get democrats out of the way, and get rid of the programs, then people realize "Hey we like programs" and the democrats come back in with a free slate, not tied to failed polcies of hte past... and hopefully go with better ones.

Coincidentally, George Stephanopolis I think ran the worst debate i'd ever seen.

It was so bad and biased against Obama it inadvertantly swung the entire campaign towards him for the rest of the campaign as they used kid gloves afraid they'd go down his road in his overexerburence for Hillary Clinton.

Really, I think you are just stating what you want to believe. Independant since 18 and I will never vote Republican. Just vote for the best option that can win.

The thing that annoys me about debating on this forum is it only has men that tend to be right thinkers instead of left thinkers. I truly wish we had a better pool of thinking that involved more women that are more often left minded.

I don't think that actually makes you an independent... so much as a Democrat who doesn't like to be labeled a democrat.

Independents, at least when talking politically in the US are generally seen as people who could vote either way depending.

Lol, no. I think I just do not want to waste my vote on something that would help Republicans. Voting for a third party is a wasted vote that would otherwise help more of the values I believe in that the democrats share. I do not read your posts much, but I am curious if you actually vote left ever yourself?

We have one poll that says Biden won, 50% to 31% (CBS). Two that say Ryan won, 56% to 36% (CNBC) and 48% to 44% (CNN). Have to see more polls as we go forward.