Brave New World, anyone?

@Game_boy

How can you conclude for sure that the foetus doesn't feel pain, but only a chemical reaction? You might repond how can I conclude for sure that it does, but I would suggest that in matters of life and death the burden of proof lies with the one trying to justify the ending of life.

@fkusumot - Are you sure you fully understand Descartes? "I think therefore I am" does not mean that one needs to be able to formulate that argument in their head in order to be. If I feel pain, I am conscious and thinking at some level, however basic that level may be. Now granted, if the foetus cannot experience pain then the Cartesian argument doesn't apply. If it does (and I don't know of any doctor who has suggested that it can't) then it is relevant. If you disagree with that, argue your point rather than dismissing it with unsupported conclusions like "you are really failing" [did you mean "flailing"?].

 Descarte used the word cogito, not sentio. You don't understand the argument.

Perhaps that is true (in who must justify it rather than objective truth), but e.g. requiring use of anasthetic to stop foetal pain does not equate to abortion not being allowed.

Hey i'm not completely hedonistic or something.  Fairly cultured and such don't do any drugs or have casual sex.  I care for other people and such... just kids.  Never seen the point. 

Seems like by the time the kid is any fun he's hit his rebellious phase and hates you, then he's grown and things may or may not work out well.  Since some kids just turn out to be assholes.  No matter how you raise them.  

Or as was my case.  Sometimes the child just has nothing in common with the parents.   Seems like one of those things i wouldn't get unless I had a kid... and I don't care that much to know.  

I'm not even really lazy.  Just compared to my family... like my dad... who's leisure activities even find a way to be productive. (Fishing, wood work.)   

Either way my girlfriend doesn't want kids either and i figure it's more her decision then mine.  I just think I have good DNA.  I turned out pretty good and I wasn't even a finished product.

I blame Idocracy for that though... as it's the kind of thing i was jokingly saying for years before i saw that movie... and it's actually kinda true.  

fkusumot said: "Descarte used the word cogito, not sentio. You don't understand the argument."

That as may be, but sentience is a form of cognition. (Cognition: The mental process of knowing, including awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment. [American Heritage Science Dictionary]) That said, my Latin is poor - are cognition and sentience oversimplified translations?

Cogito is for thinking, sentio is for feeling, i.e., Descarte didn't say "I feel, therefore I am". You can make that argument yourself but that is not the argument that Descarte was making.

Personally I am against most of the exceptions. That said, if the choices of reducing the murders a day by a million a year instead of a million and 100 thousand, or not being called a hypocrite and letting the killing of millions of inocent lives go on than I don't care what you call me.

Abortion is legal for all 9 months in the United States.  No one has answered yet what the difference is besides a few hours for labor and delivery.  I think you are a much bigger hypocrate if you are pro choice and don't support the parents killing their baby for the first few months or years after it's been born!

This has to be one of the most rediculous arguments I have ever seen a pro lifer make.  Its a metter of when real human existance begins, not potential human existance.  A zygote is not a human, it could become a human under the right circumstances.

But arguing that point, you must consider menstruation and teh death of all non-fertilizing sperm as murder too, because those sperm and eggs could become humans under the right circumstances. 

If you look at a religeous view on the subject, what makes us human is our free will and ability to reason which sets us apart from animals.  I am sure nearly 100% of you pro-lifers feel that eating meat is not wrong.  However, a collection of cells or even a being with a brain that does not have a developed enough cerebrum can't be capable of these things and therefore can't be called a human.

And let me clear something up that pro-lifers like to toss around.  No one is "Pro-Abortion," everyone would be happy if abortions never happened, and never needed to.  The opposing side to pro-life feels that its the mother's choice, and its VERY easy for us men to get on our moral high horses and spout from our ivory towers seeing as we will never be in a position where we have to make that choice.