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Forums - Politics Discussion - Romney doesn't care about 47% of americans

Romney claimed to lack elegance in what he was trying to say, which was the problem. I am going to try to more accurately frame what is going on here, and explain maybe make it make more sense.

The 47% comment, makes more sense when connected with what people believe, rather than there state. There is, say around half the people, who believe a nation collectively rises and falls, and is locked into it. They believe that there is mutual dependency, and believe that the government has a role in making this happen. This 47% will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER vote for Romney. On the other side, you have a core base that believes that individuals rise and fall on their own, and where they are is completely their fault alone. This core base will respond to Romney's message, and NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER vote for the Democrats, because this core sees anything remotely saying people rising and falling together as "Socialism", to any degree. In the middle, is what is battled over. With Romney this is seen as 5-10%, and where the battleground is.

And I would say, this is where the battle lines are in this election. What you see is all about this and that is what it is. What is seen as America's values is becoming defined here. And the question is: Are people where they are because of collective condition of America, or because of themselves alone? This question need not be just one or the other, but can be a mix, although I am sure there is a desire for the political parties to frame it as either/or.



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steverhcp02 said:

@ the bold. Once someone starts with the talkign points "liberal media" then my interest wanes. But that little ditty with the swear words shows some pizzaz but once you come to terms with reality and that Obama will be re-elected the aggression should subside.

@ the edit. Well ive done peer interviews to hire people at my Hospital. I sit down ask direct questions related to the position theyll be hired to and get direct answers. I dont have them send in 30 second clips of why the other potential hire is a communist or a neo-con and hire them to a 4 year contract without sitting face to face so id argue youre wrong.

@ overal discussion. Dont belittle other peoples opinions on a forum (asking a lot i know). I wasnt argueing tax definitions i simply pointed out my opinion on the comment in the context of reality. You show a lack of control which doesnt suit your argument, Once you and many others realize we arent swaying ideas and we will all walk away from these screens back to our lives with the same believes we are simply venting and looking for public approval from others, this will be a better healthier debate.

I am not "wrong" at all. I was simply pointing out my amusement of his comments which were this: He lumps all who pay no income tax/have benefits (47%) as not taking initiative, responsibility of their lives etc. I simply pointed out he only pays taxes on his money making him more money. If a Republican colleague Newt Gingrich were to enact his tax plan of 0% capital gains, Romney ADMITTED he would pay an effective rate of 0%. Which i found humerous because its not that outlandish that at one point Newt was on the verge of being nominee and then Romney could tell himself he needs to take personal responsibility for his life, thats all.

If I am belittling your opinion, it's only because it's a remarkably silly one. "All it would take for Romney to pay 0% income tax is for us to tax his income at 0%! LOLOL!"

And once again, where you were wrong is when you said that Romney is currently paying little to no income taxes at the moment - indicating that you believe that the capital gains tax is not an income tax. It is, and if you've ever seen a tax form you should know this, so you were wrong. It is really quite cringe-inducing to watch someone be so obviously wrong and still deny it, so please, please stop this madness. You don't even have to make a mea culpa or anything. Just stop.



badgenome said:
steverhcp02 said:

@ the bold. Once someone starts with the talkign points "liberal media" then my interest wanes. But that little ditty with the swear words shows some pizzaz but once you come to terms with reality and that Obama will be re-elected the aggression should subside.

@ the edit. Well ive done peer interviews to hire people at my Hospital. I sit down ask direct questions related to the position theyll be hired to and get direct answers. I dont have them send in 30 second clips of why the other potential hire is a communist or a neo-con and hire them to a 4 year contract without sitting face to face so id argue youre wrong.

@ overal discussion. Dont belittle other peoples opinions on a forum (asking a lot i know). I wasnt argueing tax definitions i simply pointed out my opinion on the comment in the context of reality. You show a lack of control which doesnt suit your argument, Once you and many others realize we arent swaying ideas and we will all walk away from these screens back to our lives with the same believes we are simply venting and looking for public approval from others, this will be a better healthier debate.

I am not "wrong" at all. I was simply pointing out my amusement of his comments which were this: He lumps all who pay no income tax/have benefits (47%) as not taking initiative, responsibility of their lives etc. I simply pointed out he only pays taxes on his money making him more money. If a Republican colleague Newt Gingrich were to enact his tax plan of 0% capital gains, Romney ADMITTED he would pay an effective rate of 0%. Which i found humerous because its not that outlandish that at one point Newt was on the verge of being nominee and then Romney could tell himself he needs to take personal responsibility for his life, thats all.

If I am belittling your opinion, it's only because it's a remarkably silly one. "All it would take for Romney to pay 0% income tax is for us to tax his income at 0%! LOLOL!"

And once again, where you were wrong is when you said that Romney is currently paying little to no income taxes at the moment - indicating that you believe that the capital gains tax is not an income tax. It is, and if you've ever seen a tax form you should know this, so you were wrong. It is really quite cringe-inducing to watch someone be so obviously wrong and still deny it, so please, please stop this madness. You don't even have to make a mea culpa or anything. Just stop.

What matters isn't what things are labelled, but what is paid in taxes.  Ok, fine, Romney's capital gains are income.  So, because of who he is, on an upper end, his income is treated at a lower rate than others.  And the point here is that, under what Newt proposed, he would of paid NO income tax.  Do you really want to say what he paid was income taxes?

And a funny thing about Romney, is that apparently he underreported his charitable deductions so that he would pay more taxes... while he is running for president.  He apparently didn't want to get the amount of taxes he paid under 11%:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-campaign-says-he-paid-more-taxes-than-he-ha



richardhutnik said:

Do you really want to say what he paid was income taxes?

Yes, because that's precisely what it is.

What's really funny is we're talking about a guy who paid over a million dollars in income taxes and donated something like $4 million to charity in one year as if he's a hair's breadth away from being one of the moochers all because of some stupid thing Newt Gingrich said, showing just how far removed from reality political discussions tend to become.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

Do you really want to say what he paid was income taxes?

Yes, because that's precisely what it is.

What's really funny is we're talking about a guy who paid over a million dollars in income taxes and donated something like $4 million to charity in one year as if he's a hair's breadth away from being one of the moochers all because of some stupid thing Newt Gingrich said, showing just how far removed from reality political discussions tend to become.

And Romney is the one who called him on it.  This entire discussion is going crazy.  The only said answer the GOP has is to figure out where they can cut taxes even more.  The idea also is to make the budget deficit so bad that there will be forced cuts the body politic is opposed to.  And then you now add the 47% on top of this, and it is just a mess here.  Not paying income taxes is now being defined as "being a moocher".  More people DID pay taxes in the past, but they kept reducing the tax rate and knocking people off, in order to lower taxes on the higher end.  It is now, seriously, the GOP is complaining not enough people are paying taxes. 



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richardhutnik said:

And Romney is the one who called him on it.  This entire discussion is going crazy.  The only said answer the GOP has is to figure out where they can cut taxes even more.  The idea also is to make the budget deficit so bad that there will be forced cuts the body politic is opposed to.  And then you now add the 47% on top of this, and it is just a mess here.  Not paying income taxes is now being defined as "being a moocher".  More people DID pay taxes in the past, but they kept reducing the tax rate and knocking people off, in order to lower taxes on the higher end.  It is now, seriously, the GOP is complaining not enough people are paying taxes. 

So what's the problem here? Romney doesn't want cap gains to be 0%, he didn't write the tax code but operates within it as per the law, and like a total moron, he even pays more in taxes than he has to. Attacking him on his personal taxes just reeks of desperation and envy. His 47% comment was off the mark, but while not everyone who doesn't pay income taxes isn't a moocher, there are too many people who are net consumers rather than net contributors and are perfectly happy to be so. Those are the moochers, and whatever his many other problems, Romney is not even close to being one of them.

As far as the GOP cutting taxes without corresponding spending cuts, you're preaching to the choir. I don't think they did it to run up the deficit in order to force spending cuts any more than I think Democrats have spent like crazy in order to run up the deficit to force cuts. They're just behaving like typical politicians, focusing on the short term and paying no mind to the long term. It's no coincidence that both Cheney and Obama have said, "Deficits don't matter," and it's no coincidence that they said so when they were in power.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

And Romney is the one who called him on it.  This entire discussion is going crazy.  The only said answer the GOP has is to figure out where they can cut taxes even more.  The idea also is to make the budget deficit so bad that there will be forced cuts the body politic is opposed to.  And then you now add the 47% on top of this, and it is just a mess here.  Not paying income taxes is now being defined as "being a moocher".  More people DID pay taxes in the past, but they kept reducing the tax rate and knocking people off, in order to lower taxes on the higher end.  It is now, seriously, the GOP is complaining not enough people are paying taxes. 

So what's the problem here? Romney doesn't want cap gains to be 0%, he didn't write the tax code but operates within it as per the law, and like a total moron, he even pays more in taxes than he has to. Attacking him on his personal taxes just reeks of desperation and envy. His 47% comment was off the mark, but while not everyone who doesn't pay income taxes isn't a moocher, there are too many people who are net consumers rather than net contributors and are perfectly happy to be so. Those are the moochers, and whatever his many other problems, Romney is not even close to being one of them.

As far as the GOP cutting taxes without corresponding spending cuts, you're preaching to the choir. I don't think they did it to run up the deficit in order to force spending cuts any more than I think Democrats have spent like crazy in order to run up the deficit to force cuts. They're just behaving like typical politicians, focusing on the short term and paying no mind to the long term. It's no coincidence that both Cheney and Obama have said, "Deficits don't matter," and it's no coincidence that they said so when they were in power.

Several things:

* The entire attacking someone on their taxes has been a mantra floating around.  The "We are the 53%" (other side of the 47%) response to Occupy Wall Street is all about attacking people on the fact they don't pay taxes.  "Skin in the game" is what was floated about also.  

* Romney brought it up to show how daft Newt was for mentioning it.  Unless someone wants to argue that somehow the rich having lower percentage tax rate is a good thing, as in them paying NO income taxes, then Romney did show there is a problem.

* As far as cutting taxes to drive spending cuts, that is called "Starving the beast".  It has been floated around GOP and conservative circles for decades.  The belief is that if you cause the deficit to get severe enough, combine with making raising taxes poison, the government would be forced to slash spending.  You can read more about it here:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/06/tax-cuts-republicans-starve-the-beast-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast



Let's be honest....... both don't care about anyone but the people who pay them and themselves.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

richardhutnik said:

Several things:

* The entire attacking someone on their taxes has been a mantra floating around.  The "We are the 53%" (other side of the 47%) response to Occupy Wall Street is all about attacking people on the fact they don't pay taxes.  "Skin in the game" is what was floated about also.  

* Romney brought it up to show how daft Newt was for mentioning it.  Unless someone wants to argue that somehow the rich having lower percentage tax rate is a good thing, as in them paying NO income taxes, then Romney did show there is a problem.

* As far as cutting taxes to drive spending cuts, that is called "Starving the beast".  It has been floated around GOP and conservative circles for decades.  The belief is that if you cause the deficit to get severe enough, combine with making raising taxes poison, the government would be forced to slash spending.  You can read more about it here:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/06/tax-cuts-republicans-starve-the-beast-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Starving the beast has for a long time now been an idea that only really thrives among conservatives out of power (i.e., pundits). It's an idea certain politicians may recklessly invoke from time to time, but it's entirely rhetorical. Were the Bush tax cuts done out of a Machiavellian attempt to starve the beast? Or were they done because he'd inherited an economy on the brink of recession and tax cuts are generally popular, so why not? If it was the former, it certainly didn't work because the Republicans controlled all the levers of power and what did they do? They passed Medicare Part D.

When Republicans do something stupid and destructive, it isn't because they're evil super geniuses. It's because they're idiots.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

Several things:

* The entire attacking someone on their taxes has been a mantra floating around.  The "We are the 53%" (other side of the 47%) response to Occupy Wall Street is all about attacking people on the fact they don't pay taxes.  "Skin in the game" is what was floated about also.  

* Romney brought it up to show how daft Newt was for mentioning it.  Unless someone wants to argue that somehow the rich having lower percentage tax rate is a good thing, as in them paying NO income taxes, then Romney did show there is a problem.

* As far as cutting taxes to drive spending cuts, that is called "Starving the beast".  It has been floated around GOP and conservative circles for decades.  The belief is that if you cause the deficit to get severe enough, combine with making raising taxes poison, the government would be forced to slash spending.  You can read more about it here:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/06/tax-cuts-republicans-starve-the-beast-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Starving the beast has for a long time now been an idea that only really thrives among conservatives out of power (i.e., pundits). It's an idea certain politicians may recklessly invoke from time to time, but it's entirely rhetorical. Were the Bush tax cuts done out of a Machiavellian attempt to starve the beast? Or were they done because he'd inherited an economy on the brink of recession and tax cuts are generally popular, so why not? If it was the former, it certainly didn't work because the Republicans controlled all the levers of power and what did they do? They passed Medicare Part D.

When Republicans do something stupid and destructive, it isn't because they're evil super geniuses. It's because they're idiots.

Even the GOP is running on how the Democrats want to cut funding to Medicare.  As it is now, the body politic really doesn't want budget cuts.  So, it ends up to be folly.  But the idea is there, as one of the rationales for pushing budget cuts, very likely discussed among those who want to advocate smaller government, to rationalize the tax cuts, even when they aren't matched with budget cuts, because the belief is that a crisis will eventually happen.