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Forums - Gaming - Stupid jury kills innovation/competition and hands Apple a monopoly

 

Describe the Jury's decision.

Smart: Apple did it first... 47 17.67%
 
Stupid: You can't patent... 216 81.20%
 
Total:263
kain_kusanagi said:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/samsung-found-infringe-most-apple-231101124.html

"Apple, based in Cupertino, California, sued Samsung in April 2011, and Samsung countersued as part of a battle being waged on four continents over a smartphone market valued at $219.1 billion according to Bloomberg Industries. The companies have also sued each other in the U.K., Australia and South Korea.

Questions over damages awards were among the more than 600 questions the jury was asked to address. Apple sought $2.5 billion to $2.75 billion for its claims that Suwon, South Korea- based Samsung infringed four design patents and three software patents in copying the iPhone and iPad. Samsung's demand for as much as $421.8 million in royalties was based on claims that Apple infringed five patents.

Apple also wants to make permanent a preliminary ban it won on U.S. sales of a Samsung tablet computer and extend the ban to Samsung smartphones. U.S. District Judge Lucy Koh, who presided over the San Jose trial, would decide that question herself without the jury".

This is bad news and sets a very bad president. The last time Apple tried this they lost and ended up having to pay MS. Today's jury was probably padded with iPhone users who probably think Apple invented touch screens. I can't tell you how disappointed I am. Android is better than iOS and together they push technology forward. Hopefully Samsung will be able to appeal to a higher court and get this overturned.

According to what I read, the jury was actually made up of people with a background in enginerring, a background in law, and the foreman was himself a patent holder. So, they really picked the right people, or at least the people with the right kind of background and credentials. One of them came out after the virdict was handed down and explained the decision. It came down to several things. The incriminating emails from Samsung was a dead givaway that they willingly coppied Apple's designs and did so in a wrongful way that no company would openly admit to doing. Second, the people from Samsung were dodging questions, were not open about a lot of things, and basically did not act like anyone who really was innocent. What finally sealed the deal were the comparison charts; the one with the pictures of the pre-iPhone Samsung smartphones to the left, the first iPhone in the middle, and the Samsung smartphones that came after iPhone to the right.

A lot of people may not have liked what had happened, but it really was a fair trial. Apple made a good case with damnding evidence while Samsung presented themselves very poorly. The key to their entire defense consisted of using footage from movies like 2001: A Space Oddesy and Star Trek as a way of trying convince the jury the Apple's creative ideas were universal. It didn't work. They didn't outright say "yeah, we coppied", but they weren't denying it either and if they were really innocent, why not be more open? Why not give straight, honest answers? 



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Jon-Erich said:
kain_kusanagi said:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/samsung-found-infringe-most-apple-231101124.html

"Apple, based in Cupertino, California, sued Samsung in April 2011, and Samsung countersued as part of a battle being waged on four continents over a smartphone market valued at $219.1 billion according to Bloomberg Industries. The companies have also sued each other in the U.K., Australia and South Korea.

Questions over damages awards were among the more than 600 questions the jury was asked to address. Apple sought $2.5 billion to $2.75 billion for its claims that Suwon, South Korea- based Samsung infringed four design patents and three software patents in copying the iPhone and iPad. Samsung's demand for as much as $421.8 million in royalties was based on claims that Apple infringed five patents.

Apple also wants to make permanent a preliminary ban it won on U.S. sales of a Samsung tablet computer and extend the ban to Samsung smartphones. U.S. District Judge Lucy Koh, who presided over the San Jose trial, would decide that question herself without the jury".

This is bad news and sets a very bad president. The last time Apple tried this they lost and ended up having to pay MS. Today's jury was probably padded with iPhone users who probably think Apple invented touch screens. I can't tell you how disappointed I am. Android is better than iOS and together they push technology forward. Hopefully Samsung will be able to appeal to a higher court and get this overturned.

According to what I read, the jury was actually made up of people with a background in enginerring, a background in law, and the foreman was himself a patent holder. So, they really picked the right people, or at least the people with the right kind of background and credentials. One of them came out after the virdict was handed down and explained the decision. It came down to several things. The incriminating emails from Samsung was a dead givaway that they willingly coppied Apple's designs and did so in a wrongful way that no company would openly admit to doing. Second, the people from Samsung were dodging questions, were not open about a lot of things, and basically did not act like anyone who really was innocent. What finally sealed the deal were the comparison charts; the one with the pictures of the pre-iPhone Samsung smartphones to the left, the first iPhone in the middle, and the Samsung smartphones that came after iPhone to the right.

A lot of people may not have liked what had happened, but it really was a fair trial. Apple made a good case with damnding evidence while Samsung presented themselves very poorly. The key to their entire defense consisted of using footage from movies like 2001: A Space Oddesy and Star Trek as a way of trying convince the jury the Apple's creative ideas were universal. It didn't work. They didn't outright say "yeah, we coppied", but they weren't denying it either and if they were really innocent, why not be more open? Why not give straight, honest answers? 

There are numerous issues with the Jury and the way they managed to get to a verdict so fast. This article does a good job of highlighting some of the inconsistencies:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390



zero129 said:
Jumpin said:
zero129 said:
Jumpin said:
disolitude said:

WTF are you people talking about?

Do some research and look at the phones which were sued and patents that Apple sued them with. Looking at the phones in question, Samsung "willingly" copied the Iphone and its features.

People that know me know that I don't like Apple but I hate seeing lack of common sense.

Pretty much all of these anti-apple chuckleheads are no more than ignorant mindless robots who lack the ability to think for themselves; common sense is not exactly something valued among these people. This is exactly why they manage to mix up innovation and stealing/copying.

Kinda like all them Apple chuckleheads who think stealing a bunch of other peoples ideas and putting them into one package = innovation and then sides with Apple when the same is done to them?

Although the situation you describe does not resemble reality. There aren't any Apple fans here who think " think stealing a bunch of other peoples ideas and putting them into one package = innovation"

It is fairly typical for anti-Apple people to come up with fictional scenarios in a lame attempt at attacking apple due to some sort of imaginary war that you think they are fighting on behalf of Android or Windows or whatever. Samsung blatantly infringed on 6 patents, and the courts decided to award Apple over 1 billion USD as a result of it. Somehow the anti-Apple seem to completely lack understanding of this fact; and that sort of ignorance combined with their myth-making key-board warrioring against people who like Apple products is what makes them a bunch of chuckleheads.

What i described is based as much in reality as what you did. So please don't try using such false statements as "situation you describe does not resemble reality" as it very much does so and has been proving in this very thread,  also to the bolded, some of the people in this thread sure could of fooled me (But i wont point out no names).

Although my statement isn't false, just look at the thread title alone for your proof.

Your statement is false, and you have nothing to back it up.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

zero129 said:

Hell i guess we where all lucky Nintendo didnt patient the controller or analog sticks or the rumblepack feature.

Sssttt.. nintendo patented the cross shaped d-pad... why do you think we have such crappy d-pads on other controllers..... :(



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

Superman4 said:
disolitude said:

WTF are you people talking about?

Do some research and look at the phones which were sued and patents that Apple sued them with. Looking at the phones in question, Samsung "willingly" copied the Iphone and its features.

People that know me know that I don't like Apple but I hate seeing lack of common sense.


Actually if someone that knows about both phones looks at them they would realize the pictures are doctored.  The home page for the Android based device looks nothing like that. They are purposly in the apps menu to make it look similar. 


It's funny to see so many people claim that this image has been doctored or cherry-picked by Apple and isn't representative of the Galaxy S.

The image was cherry-picked by Samsung's own marketing people, precisely because that screen looks more like an iPhone than any other Android phone screen:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/samsung-announces-galaxy-s-android-smartphone/

None of the intellectual property that Samsung was found guilty of infringing is required to make a smartphone. Not Apple's trade dress (ie, look and feel), not slide to unlock, scroll bounce-back. Samsung is a big boy, fully capable of making its own unique designs and interfaces, but the only way it's going to do that is if it gets spanked for its serial plagiarism. Yes, serial. Before Apple was the market leader, Samsung was stealing designs from the Blackberry and the RAZR.

Lawsuits like this actually promote innovation. Samsung will be forced to craft its own design, it's own solution to unlocking a touchscreen phone, it's own method of signaling the end of a page to a user. Who knows, maybe a Samsung committed to developing new ideas instead of photocopying their biggest rival will come up with the Next Big Thing and actually kill the iPhone.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
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famousringo said:
Superman4 said:
disolitude said:

WTF are you people talking about?

Do some research and look at the phones which were sued and patents that Apple sued them with. Looking at the phones in question, Samsung "willingly" copied the Iphone and its features.

People that know me know that I don't like Apple but I hate seeing lack of common sense.


Actually if someone that knows about both phones looks at them they would realize the pictures are doctored.  The home page for the Android based device looks nothing like that. They are purposly in the apps menu to make it look similar. 


It's funny to see so many people claim that this image has been doctored or cherry-picked by Apple and isn't representative of the Galaxy S.

The image was cherry-picked by Samsung's own marketing people, precisely because that screen looks more like an iPhone than any other Android phone screen:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/samsung-announces-galaxy-s-android-smartphone/

None of the intellectual property that Samsung was found guilty of infringing is required to make a smartphone. Not Apple's trade dress (ie, look and feel), not slide to unlock, scroll bounce-back. Samsung is a big boy, fully capable of making its own unique designs and interfaces, but the only way it's going to do that is if it gets spanked for its serial plagiarism. Yes, serial. Before Apple was the market leader, Samsung was stealing designs from the Blackberry and the RAZR.

Lawsuits like this actually promote innovation. Samsung will be forced to craft its own design, it's own solution to unlocking a touchscreen phone, it's own method of signaling the end of a page to a user. Who knows, maybe a Samsung committed to developing new ideas instead of photocopying their biggest rival will come up with the Next Big Thing and actually kill the iPhone.

That doesn't change the fact that you must follow a whole bunch of steps to make your Galaxy S look like that. A stock Galaxy S looks much better anyway. In any case, that's irrelevant. You cannot patent look and feel. Slide to unlock was not invented by apple. Neither was bounce-back. Should Apple be sued for the ability of iOS to have a custom background, ability to access the camera from lock screen, multitasking, taskbar notification system, plus a shitload of other things just because Android had them first?



           

ultima said:
famousringo said:
Superman4 said:


It's funny to see so many people claim that this image has been doctored or cherry-picked by Apple and isn't representative of the Galaxy S.

The image was cherry-picked by Samsung's own marketing people, precisely because that screen looks more like an iPhone than any other Android phone screen:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/samsung-announces-galaxy-s-android-smartphone/

 

1. That doesn't change the fact that you must follow a whole bunch of steps to make your Galaxy S look like that. A stock Galaxy S looks much better anyway. In any case, that's irrelevant. 2. You cannot patent look and feel. 3. Slide to unlock was not invented by apple. Neither was bounce-back. 4. Should Apple be sued for the ability of iOS to have a custom background, ability to access the camera from lock screen, multitasking, taskbar notification system, plus a shitload of other things just because Android had them first?

1. And Samsung took those steps in their press and marketing materials. What does that tell you about Samsung's intent?

2. Yes, you can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress

3. So far, the entire US legal system from the patent office to the nine jurors in this case disagrees with you.

4. If anybody owns patents on those technologies, they certainly deserve their day in court.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

famousringo said:
ultima said:
famousringo said:
Superman4 said:


It's funny to see so many people claim that this image has been doctored or cherry-picked by Apple and isn't representative of the Galaxy S.

The image was cherry-picked by Samsung's own marketing people, precisely because that screen looks more like an iPhone than any other Android phone screen:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/samsung-announces-galaxy-s-android-smartphone/

 

1. That doesn't change the fact that you must follow a whole bunch of steps to make your Galaxy S look like that. A stock Galaxy S looks much better anyway. In any case, that's irrelevant. 2. You cannot patent look and feel. 3. Slide to unlock was not invented by apple. Neither was bounce-back. 4. Should Apple be sued for the ability of iOS to have a custom background, ability to access the camera from lock screen, multitasking, taskbar notification system, plus a shitload of other things just because Android had them first?

1. And Samsung took those steps in their press and marketing materials. What does that tell you about Samsung's intent?

2. Yes, you can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress

3. So far, the entire US legal system from the patent office to the nine jurors in this case disagrees with you.

4. If anybody owns patents on those technologies, they certainly deserve their day in court.

You know, a huge number of patents get granted but a large number of them are shot down when challenged (as should have occured in this case). Do you know how many patent trolls have tried to claim patents on the most ridiculous and obvious of ideas? Just because a patent gets granted doesn't mean it should hold up.

The basic idea of a patent is that it's useful, new and non-obvious. Apple's patents in this case were neither new or non-obvious and therefore this case should have been thrown out (as should be the case for Samsung's patent on MP3s playing on a smartphone). Samsung's intent in this case should have been a moot point when the patents shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

As for the jurors, the jury foreman has this as a patent:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/7352953

He's basically describing TiVo-like device or a Home Theater PC in a patent which again, should not have been granted (he filed 3 years after the first TiVo device). If this was the primary "expertise" for the jury then it's little wonder the outcome is so ridiculous.



Scoobes said:

You know, a huge number of patents get granted but a large number of them are shot down when challenged (as should have occured in this case). Do you know how many patent trolls have tried to claim patents on the most ridiculous and obvious of ideas? Just because a patent gets granted doesn't mean it should hold up.

The basic idea of a patent is that it's useful, new and non-obvious. Apple's patents in this case were neither new or non-obvious and therefore this case should have been thrown out (as should be the case for Samsung's patent on MP3s playing on a smartphone). Samsung's intent in this case should have been a moot point when the patents shouldn't have been granted in the first place.

As for the jurors, the jury foreman has this as a patent:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/7352953

He's basically describing TiVo-like device or a Home Theater PC in a patent which again, should not have been granted (he filed 3 years after the first TiVo device). If this was the primary "expertise" for the jury then it's little wonder the outcome is so ridiculous.


Right. Patents get invalidated. They also get upheld. That's up to the jury and the judge, all of whom are much more much more familiar with this matter than the average forum poster, having done nothing but sit through both sides' legal arguments for a couple weeks now (while hopefully being insulated from melodramatic press headlines).

Samsung certainly tried to invalidate Apple's patents. The jury was not persuaded. There's still some chance that the judge was. There's also a chance that the judge thinks the jury didn't go far enough, and she decides the Galaxy Tab also infringes on Apple's design and trade dress.

Also, if Samsung felt that particular juror's patent experience biased him against them (which in itself implies that Apple is on the stronger side of patent law than Samsung), they had their opportunity to have him removed.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

famousringo said:
ultima said:
famousringo said:
Superman4 said:


It's funny to see so many people claim that this image has been doctored or cherry-picked by Apple and isn't representative of the Galaxy S.

The image was cherry-picked by Samsung's own marketing people, precisely because that screen looks more like an iPhone than any other Android phone screen:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/23/samsung-announces-galaxy-s-android-smartphone/

 

1. That doesn't change the fact that you must follow a whole bunch of steps to make your Galaxy S look like that. A stock Galaxy S looks much better anyway. In any case, that's irrelevant. 2. You cannot patent look and feel. 3. Slide to unlock was not invented by apple. Neither was bounce-back. 4. Should Apple be sued for the ability of iOS to have a custom background, ability to access the camera from lock screen, multitasking, taskbar notification system, plus a shitload of other things just because Android had them first?

1. And Samsung took those steps in their press and marketing materials. What does that tell you about Samsung's intent?

2. Yes, you can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress

3. So far, the entire US legal system from the patent office to the nine jurors in this case disagrees with you.

4. If anybody owns patents on those technologies, they certainly deserve their day in court.

1. Like I said, that's irrelevant. Besides, a grid of icons on a black background seems like patentable idea to you? Physically, the Galaxy S was very different from iPhone too. Have you ever held one in your hand? It was much larger and thinner than the 3GS. And the materials used felt noticeably different. 

2. Okay, my bad. But Apple should've never been granted a patent for such an obvious and unoriginal design. How about LG, Sony, Samsung each suing and countersuing each other because their TV's look pretty much the same?

3. If you do a quick search for yourself, you'll find that they didn't indeed invent those things.

4. Screw the broken (or at the very least disgustingly inefficient) patent laws and give me an answer that you think is fair. Should Apple be fined billions for copying things from Android? My answer is no. Because everyone benefits from the idea of "borrow and improve". These lawsuits have to stop. Apple is by far the greatest culprit here, and if they stop, I'm sure everyone will drop their countersuits against them. They really are hurting innovation.