And? That's not an actual point in and of itself. "11-year-old plays Saints Row with father" is not a legitimate source of righteous indignation.

This is me kinda projecting my childhood here, d21, but do you ever play Mario Golf with her?

When I was growing up I think I played Mario Golf with my father more than I played any other game

Hey, I'm not offended by your response or anything.  I knew I'd get somebody responding the way you did.  That's why I added the "I'm a terrible father" line in the OP.  It's no big deal.  Sorry if I'm coming on a little strong.  It's not how I usually am.

The point of the thread and the reason I made it is that over the last couple of generations, people seem to think that any game that doesn't have blood, profanity, or appeals to an older audience is a game for casuals.  From where I sit, as a gamer from the early 80's to today (and honestly, I've been leaning towards cinematic games since I saw my first cutscene in Ninja Gaiden for the Nes), I think games have gotten away from the point.  Now, people care more about the presentation of a game and things like story and less about the game.  When I was a kid (back when TV's ran on gas), when we looked at video games, we emphasized the GAME over the video.

Don't get me wrong.  I very much prefer games the way they are now to the way they were, then.  I used to sit up late at night playing the same level of Castlevania for the hundreth time trying to figure out the enemy's pattern.  It was actually a feat of skill to see the end credits.  You know you accomplished something.  You were hardcore for seeing something that a casual gamer could only dream of.  Now, it seems that games that require that level of dedication, patience, and skill are looked down on because of their looks.  Don't let the looks fool you.  Some of the toughest games out there come with a "candy shell" while some of the easiest, noob friendly games on the market feature cutting edge graphics and gigantic, intimidating bosses (aka: Paper tigers).

That's what I was trying to point out:  That my 11 year old girl can (and has) beaten the games that many consider core but the games that are labeled casual require hardcore skill.  For an old man like me, it's like living in bizarro world.

look, I will be as clear as i possibly can:

games getting easier, holding your hand, requiring little skill, rewardin you for nothing; is only like the biggest and most obvious issue with video games the last 10 years ! It's so evident there's no need for discussion

why on earth did a fella create such a topic discussing something so self evident, centered around an 11 year old ?

there's no need for the 11 year old in this matter, it's an obvious matter, yet we are talking about prepubescents and mature content !

In the first place, that's not the point of the topic. THe point of the topic as I understand it is the counterintuitive dichotomy where "core" games are easier than "kiddy" games like Mario, not the general trend toward games being easier. Lewis never brought that up; you did.

Secondly, he brings up his daughter's experience firstly as a way to frame the issue and secondly because using personal experience to frame a topic in a way that people can understan makes it more easily relatable for the people involved. It recalls people's own experiences of gaming when young (like mine) and it allows for a common connection between people who have those shared experiences.

Not Mario Golf (I'm not a big fan of Golf) but we've logged in a lot of time in games like World of Keflings.  She doesn't like competitive games at all.  She loves co-op more than anything.  So many hours were spent playing The Simpsons Game, Kingdom of Keflings, Resident Evil 5, and Lego Indiana Jones that it's crazy. 

And in the end, I think this is where her addiction to mature games comes from.  Whenever we buy a game, she asks "Is it two-player?"  That's the reason we've blown through games like Castle Crashers, Double Dragon, Contra, Streets of Rage, etc.  She just likes playing with me.  The problem is, I just don't have the patience to play games that are geared towards her.  I planned on getting Mine Craft or the Lego Star Wars games but much of the time, even if I buy something like Little Big Planet 2 and she wants to play with me, I just find myself thinking "Fuck.  I don't want to play this kiddie game..." and I think she picks up on that. 

I like more mature games (or competitive games like Mario Kart) and she just wanted to play co-op with her dad.  I guess, to a degree, I subconsciously trained her to like the kinds of games that I like to play.  Heck, she likes comic books and pro-wrestling, too.  She's kinda like my son!

I know this post is waaaaay off topic from what you asked.  I'm just venting.

Haha no I think this pretty much nailed my question, thanks

It offers a pretty interesting perspective on how you two relate to each other too. Dare I call it... heartwarming?

Actually that is pretty true most of these games today require little to no skill, I'm talking about the uncharted ,Cod and so on. The only genre I judge a person skill in gaming on are fighting games, if you are skilled at fighting games I consider you a pretty decent gamer. As a good fighting game to me generally holds the best way to judge a person understanding of gameplay ( cannot think of a better way to put it), as they would be easy to get into but hard to master.
But there is a reason why games are so now and I'm going to say it because it needs to be said.

It's because of the rise of Western developers. They don't know how to make good gameplay to achieve this so they compensate for this in the way of graphics, violence etc.

Couldn't have said it better.   You're one hell of a tag-team partner.  That's exactly how I post.  I talk about what I experience.

@Cyberninja Your post reminds me--fighting games are amongst my favorite genres. When she saw me playing Street Fighter online, she started training in Street Fighter (and she sucked). She even tried Metal Gear solid 2 when she saw me playing the HD collection and really getting into it (and again, she sucked). She just wants to be me!

When I was a cop, I took her to the doctor and he asked her "What do you want to be when you grow up." She said, "A police....so I can help my dad." You better believe she got whatever she wanted that day!! I never felt so proud.

Well, I'm waaaaay off topic from my original post and I need to wash dishes so we can play. I only have today off from work so I don't need to waste anymore time on the net. Later, gang!


Oh, and you hardcore gamers are still a bunch of pussies. TTYL.