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Forums - General - Man branded a pedophile because of where he sat.

Immortal said:
Kantor said:

Damn right it's wrong. It doesn't matter how many brown people are terrorists. It isn't fair to assume that you, as a presumably peaceful and law-abiding person, are a terrorist because of the colour of your skin. It's terrible that you've been conditioned to think that you're somehow more of a danger than any other innocent person, and it's exactly what happens with regards to gender issues as well. Men are taught that they are all violent and mindless sex addicts, so there is no indignation when something like this happens. I think it's heartening that he initially objected, but honestly I would have refused to move. If they tried to kick me off the plane, I would sue them from the ground. It wouldn't be acceptable if the genders were reversed, so it shouldn't be acceptable here.

And yes, it does matter that you're spouting a ridiculous stereotype. It is demonstrable that black people commit more crime than white people, just as men commit more crime than women. That does not make it okay to say "that person is black/male and therefore a threat".

But no one is assuming that I'm a terrorist. Maybe my quote was a bit exaggerated (because I rather assumed you would agree with checking more-likely-to-be-terrorist people thoroughly); they're checking me not because they consider me a terrorist (that would be horribly offensive) but because I am statistically more likely to be one. Any implication along the lines of my being a threat is really not intended, I'm quite sure. It's just them being thorough.

I mean, take this example: suppose the police knows that there is some evil terrorist group whose members all have the last name "Smith" and that one of them will be boarding a plane with explosives very soon. The next rational course of action is to thoroughly check all people with the last name Smith boarding airplanes, right? That is the simplest and fastest way of preventing disaster. Doing otherwise will have horrific consequences. And yet, using your moral standards, the police can't do that. Because doing so is obviously going to inconvenience a lot of other people who only happen to have the name Smith, but didn't do anything wrong. It's discriminatory and unfair to those people, similar to people with brown skin in my example, males in this case and whoever else in tons of other situations. If we stop everything that's discriminatory and unfair for the sake of living up to this ideal, we're obviously going to have to compromise on security. That's outright unacceptable, wouldn't you agree?

And I haven't been conditioned to think of myself as dangerous at all. That's ridiculous. I know that I am more likely to be dangerous for someone who doesn't know me and, that being a fact, I fail to see what's wrong there.

I already know that black people are more likely to commit crimes. As I stated, I'm quite alright with "discriminating" against them for the sake of safety, in principle, but with how much history there is with black people having been discriminated against for no good reason, for the sake of not offending people, it's a much better idea to avoid provoking people as such, especially when the threat - somehow harming another passenger in an airplane - is fairly minimal. Of course, the threat of any random man being a threat to children is just as minimal, but in this case, considering males have not nearly as much of a reason to be offended by this, I just don't see why there's so much fuss.

Mind you, to be very honest, I'm not entirely convinced of my argument for this specific case myself. I'm mainly just being contrarian. Because this is honestly such a minor case, both in terms of the threat posed and the measures taken to avert it, that we might as well give this "male discrimination" issue that you guys seem so desperate to push the edge in terms of importance. I'm more interested in the more generalized argument concerning this ideal of people not being discriminated against being more important than avoiding the risk of catastrophe.

Well your second paragraph has an obvious problem. The group just says "You know what? They're only searching Smiths. Some of us should change our surnames and we will breeze right through". Also, there aren't two billion people in the world named "Smith". The best course of action is to put everyone through a basic check, and then give extra attention to people who look suspicious - shifty eyes, rapid breathing, moving from foot to foot, glancing around, sweating, generally looking worried. Nobody can pull off something like this without giving some signs.

Ideally: Bag in the x-ray, no stupid rules about laptops or liquids. Empty pockets. Walk through an improved millimeter wave detector. Pick up your bag. Continue. Those deemed to be suspicious (by which I do not mean "brown") could have a more thorough bag checking, perhaps. Fun fact: The TSA has stopped exactly zero terrorists in the eleven years of its existence, even with the rules on liquids and shoes and jackets and all of that. Meanwhile, the underwear bomber walked right through. Yes, he was brown. But what if he wasn't? And who's to say that Islamists are the only terrorists in the world? Look at Anders Breivik, or the IRA, or whoever shot up that Sikh temple. All white skinned.

You cannot build a safe and free society through discrimination of any kind. It will never be stable.



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Oh dear, imagine if he was black or gay. Imagine the threats the flight company would face. Thankfully it was only a member of the privileged groups.



 

 

 

 

 

Kantor said:

Well your second paragraph has an obvious problem. The group just says "You know what? They're only searching Smiths. Some of us should change our surnames and we will breeze right through". Also, there aren't two billion people in the world named "Smith". The best course of action is to put everyone through a basic check, and then give extra attention to people who look suspicious - shifty eyes, rapid breathing, moving from foot to foot, glancing around, sweating, generally looking worried. Nobody can pull off something like this without giving some signs.

Ideally: Bag in the x-ray, no stupid rules about laptops or liquids. Empty pockets. Walk through an improved millimeter wave detector. Pick up your bag. Continue. Those deemed to be suspicious (by which I do not mean "brown") could have a more thorough bag checking, perhaps. Fun fact: The TSA has stopped exactly zero terrorists in the eleven years of its existence, even with the rules on liquids and shoes and jackets and all of that. Meanwhile, the underwear bomber walked right through. Yes, he was brown. But what if he wasn't? And who's to say that Islamists are the only terrorists in the world? Look at Anders Breivik, or the IRA, or whoever shot up that Sikh temple. All white skinned.

You cannot build a safe and free society through discrimination of any kind. It will never be stable.

You're really not arguing in the area that interests me, :P. I mean, hey, I'm not even sure if it's a proper statistical fact that terrorists are usually brown or Islamists or whatever and that these decisions aren't entirely based on prejudice. That's why I'm trying to fo go for hypotheticals, because I really don't have that much experience with statistics.

For my example, obviously there's practical issues (such as the fact that it's already pretty difficult for me to get even scissors through security at airports and explosives are probably a bit harder), but please try to give me the kind of answer I'm looking for. I mean, I obviously don't mean Smith as a direct analogy for a certain color of skin when it's a changeable name. Also, isn't your method unfair as well? Not every nervous person is a terrorist. Your method would lead to a lot of innocent, but nervous people being inconvenienced, which is really just as bad as innocent, brown people or innocent Muslims being inconvenienced, because you can't even be sure that the terrorist will be nervous.

How about this, then? The police has some rough idea about the person who the terrorist is; it's a person with white skin and brown hair. That obviously means a lot of people, but will definitely help narrow down the number of people to investigate. Would you say that it's unfair for the police to investigate based on this information since it will obviously inconvenience a lot of non-criminal people for their hair and skin color?

For your idea, I've always assumed that there's some reason for the liquid, laptop, etc. stuff. If there isn't, then we might as well do your idea, but I really can't see why they'd annoy you just for the sake of it. Also, not that I care much about the TSA, but I'm quite sure it's meant to be a deterrent rather than a way to capture criminals. You have to be really, really stupid to go through security with explosives that can be detected.

I'm just wondering, but do you think that there has been a single "safe and free" society in the world until now? Because I can't think of any society where even minor incidents of discrimination like this haven't happened (in recent history, it's been much worse). And if there hasn't been one until now, I don't see any reason why there would ever be one, making aiming for this outright idealism. While idealism is fine, if getting there involves limiting our ability to prevent dangerous stuff like terrorism, I can't say I think it's worth it.



 

“These are my principles; if you don’t like them, I have others.” – Groucho Marx

Kantor said:
Immortal said:
Kantor said:

Damn right it's wrong. It doesn't matter how many brown people are terrorists. It isn't fair to assume that you, as a presumably peaceful and law-abiding person, are a terrorist because of the colour of your skin. It's terrible that you've been conditioned to think that you're somehow more of a danger than any other innocent person, and it's exactly what happens with regards to gender issues as well. Men are taught that they are all violent and mindless sex addicts, so there is no indignation when something like this happens. I think it's heartening that he initially objected, but honestly I would have refused to move. If they tried to kick me off the plane, I would sue them from the ground. It wouldn't be acceptable if the genders were reversed, so it shouldn't be acceptable here.

And yes, it does matter that you're spouting a ridiculous stereotype. It is demonstrable that black people commit more crime than white people, just as men commit more crime than women. That does not make it okay to say "that person is black/male and therefore a threat".

But no one is assuming that I'm a terrorist. Maybe my quote was a bit exaggerated (because I rather assumed you would agree with checking more-likely-to-be-terrorist people thoroughly); they're checking me not because they consider me a terrorist (that would be horribly offensive) but because I am statistically more likely to be one. Any implication along the lines of my being a threat is really not intended, I'm quite sure. It's just them being thorough.

I mean, take this example: suppose the police knows that there is some evil terrorist group whose members all have the last name "Smith" and that one of them will be boarding a plane with explosives very soon. The next rational course of action is to thoroughly check all people with the last name Smith boarding airplanes, right? That is the simplest and fastest way of preventing disaster. Doing otherwise will have horrific consequences. And yet, using your moral standards, the police can't do that. Because doing so is obviously going to inconvenience a lot of other people who only happen to have the name Smith, but didn't do anything wrong. It's discriminatory and unfair to those people, similar to people with brown skin in my example, males in this case and whoever else in tons of other situations. If we stop everything that's discriminatory and unfair for the sake of living up to this ideal, we're obviously going to have to compromise on security. That's outright unacceptable, wouldn't you agree?

And I haven't been conditioned to think of myself as dangerous at all. That's ridiculous. I know that I am more likely to be dangerous for someone who doesn't know me and, that being a fact, I fail to see what's wrong there.

I already know that black people are more likely to commit crimes. As I stated, I'm quite alright with "discriminating" against them for the sake of safety, in principle, but with how much history there is with black people having been discriminated against for no good reason, for the sake of not offending people, it's a much better idea to avoid provoking people as such, especially when the threat - somehow harming another passenger in an airplane - is fairly minimal. Of course, the threat of any random man being a threat to children is just as minimal, but in this case, considering males have not nearly as much of a reason to be offended by this, I just don't see why there's so much fuss.

Mind you, to be very honest, I'm not entirely convinced of my argument for this specific case myself. I'm mainly just being contrarian. Because this is honestly such a minor case, both in terms of the threat posed and the measures taken to avert it, that we might as well give this "male discrimination" issue that you guys seem so desperate to push the edge in terms of importance. I'm more interested in the more generalized argument concerning this ideal of people not being discriminated against being more important than avoiding the risk of catastrophe.

Well your second paragraph has an obvious problem. The group just says "You know what? They're only searching Smiths. Some of us should change our surnames and we will breeze right through". Also, there aren't two billion people in the world named "Smith". The best course of action is to put everyone through a basic check, and then give extra attention to people who look suspicious - shifty eyes, rapid breathing, moving from foot to foot, glancing around, sweating, generally looking worried. Nobody can pull off something like this without giving some signs.

Ideally: Bag in the x-ray, no stupid rules about laptops or liquids. Empty pockets. Walk through an improved millimeter wave detector. Pick up your bag. Continue. Those deemed to be suspicious (by which I do not mean "brown") could have a more thorough bag checking, perhaps. Fun fact: The TSA has stopped exactly zero terrorists in the eleven years of its existence, even with the rules on liquids and shoes and jackets and all of that. Meanwhile, the underwear bomber walked right through. Yes, he was brown. But what if he wasn't? And who's to say that Islamists are the only terrorists in the world? Look at Anders Breivik, or the IRA, or whoever shot up that Sikh temple. All white skinned.

You cannot build a safe and free society through discrimination of any kind. It will never be stable.

The underwear bomber also came in from outside the country. Pretty sure he would have been caught otherwise.



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