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Forums - Gaming - Losing Your Games Obtained Via Digital Distribution - This Week: Steam

 

Digital Distribution is

awesome, because it's li... 18 26.87%
 
terrible, because you don... 49 73.13%
 
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the2real4mafol said:
superchunk said:
Physical media (games) can be just as easily turned off if publisher deemed so.

surely not if you played without an internet connction


I was referring to future consoles and PCs moreso than past consoles.



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superchunk said:
the2real4mafol said:
superchunk said:
Physical media (games) can be just as easily turned off if publisher deemed so.

surely not if you played without an internet connction


I was referring to future consoles and PCs moreso than past consoles.

ok :)



Xbox Series, PS5 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch 2 will outsell the PS5 by 2030

the2real4mafol said:
TWRoO said:
the2real4mafol said:
superchunk said:
Physical media (games) can be just as easily turned off if publisher deemed so.

surely not if you played without an internet connction

Of course they can, they send some hired goons to come turn it off.

LOL, but that means the IP address links to your real address don't it? based on your logic 

Well your IP address can be used to find the general area you live in because ISPs don't usually hand them out randomly, they have a structure. (but no they can't find your exact address unless the ISP tells them)

Generally that's not needed though because most people seem to be fine with posting their address all over facebook etc... or alternately in a lot of cases knowing your real name means a simple search on something like 192.com finds your address



the2real4mafol said:
superchunk said:
Physical media (games) can be just as easily turned off if publisher deemed so.

surely not if you played without an internet connction


and neither can steam if you play in offline mode or with out internet. So the same difference.



Nevermore said:
zero129 said:
Nevermore said:

Nice try, but in the end it's all just smoke and mirrors. All EU member states have adopted consumer protection laws that protect the consumers from this kind of bullsh*tery. It's illegal for a company to hide disastrous clauses in contracts, like "we will add an extra fee of 1000€" or "we will set fire to your hedges". Since the law does not expect the average consumer to read the terms of service, any information that is not presented clearly is considered as omission of information.

Heck, you can sue Steam right now for the "btw, you're just licensing our games"-BS. At no point is the word license mentioned in the entire buying process, leading the consumer to assume, as seen in this thread, that they're buying a product. The fact that it's just a license is clearly a failure "to identify the commercial intent of the commercial practice if not already apparent from the context." So this is just a lawsuit waiting to happen, tho it won't be the consumer who looses that one ;)

Btw, I'm not a lawyer, all this information can be read in this shiny pamphlet: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/fair_bus_pract/ucp_en.pdf

im going to see my lawyer tomorrow and explain to him what you just said. Im going to tell him how i brought over €2000 euros worth of games from steam under the impression i then owned said games. As like you said no where at all did it state i was only renting the games.

Hmm i wonder if it would work? xD.


Be carefull with your wording, there's probably a legal difference between a licence and a rental. My guess is that they're just licences and not rentals, since they don't have an expiration date and only expire if you violate their TOS or whether the particular Steam support staff member stepped on a Lego that day.

Well as is displayed when you sign up (and the agreement that is linked when you buy a game) it says:

"This Steam Subscriber Agreement ("Agreement") is a legal document that explains your rights and obligations as a Subscriber. Please read it carefully.

1. REGISTRATION AND ACTIVATION.

Steam is an online service ("Steam") offered by Valve Corporation ("Valve").

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by installing the Steam client software and completing the Steam registration. Additionally, as a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content ("Subscriptions") available to Subscribers. Conclusion of this contract between Valve and you takes place as soon as you access the Steam service after accepting this Agreement."

"Each Subscription allows you access to certain services, software and other content under the terms of each such Subscription and this Agreement. Additional terms provided with each such Subscription ("Subscription Terms") may apply to the use of a given Subscription, and are incorporated into this Agreement."

 

So yes you are subscribing to the games, not owning or renting it. Of course as I said earlier all software you buy is technically a license anyway. You are still intitled to have access to what you payed for however so they still can't take away access without "good reason" and you can still sue them etc if you think they have unreasonably taken away access to your games, just like you could if you brought the games retail.

It's shitty but that is how it is, all content with DRM is basically the same as shown by the activivation limits in many games, and the EA fiasco.



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zarx said:
Nevermore said:
zero129 said:
Nevermore said:

Nice try, but in the end it's all just smoke and mirrors. All EU member states have adopted consumer protection laws that protect the consumers from this kind of bullsh*tery. It's illegal for a company to hide disastrous clauses in contracts, like "we will add an extra fee of 1000€" or "we will set fire to your hedges". Since the law does not expect the average consumer to read the terms of service, any information that is not presented clearly is considered as omission of information.

Heck, you can sue Steam right now for the "btw, you're just licensing our games"-BS. At no point is the word license mentioned in the entire buying process, leading the consumer to assume, as seen in this thread, that they're buying a product. The fact that it's just a license is clearly a failure "to identify the commercial intent of the commercial practice if not already apparent from the context." So this is just a lawsuit waiting to happen, tho it won't be the consumer who looses that one ;)

Btw, I'm not a lawyer, all this information can be read in this shiny pamphlet: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/fair_bus_pract/ucp_en.pdf

im going to see my lawyer tomorrow and explain to him what you just said. Im going to tell him how i brought over €2000 euros worth of games from steam under the impression i then owned said games. As like you said no where at all did it state i was only renting the games.

Hmm i wonder if it would work? xD.


Be carefull with your wording, there's probably a legal difference between a licence and a rental. My guess is that they're just licences and not rentals, since they don't have an expiration date and only expire if you violate their TOS or whether the particular Steam support staff member stepped on a Lego that day.

Well as is displayed when you sign up (and the agreement that is linked when you buy a game) it says:

"This Steam Subscriber Agreement ("Agreement") is a legal document that explains your rights and obligations as a Subscriber. Please read it carefully.

1. REGISTRATION AND ACTIVATION.

Steam is an online service ("Steam") offered by Valve Corporation ("Valve").

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by installing the Steam client software and completing the Steam registration. Additionally, as a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content ("Subscriptions") available to Subscribers. Conclusion of this contract between Valve and you takes place as soon as you access the Steam service after accepting this Agreement."

"Each Subscription allows you access to certain services, software and other content under the terms of each such Subscription and this Agreement. Additional terms provided with each such Subscription ("Subscription Terms") may apply to the use of a given Subscription, and are incorporated into this Agreement."

 

So yes you are subscribing to the games, not owning or renting it. Of course as I said earlier all software you buy is technically a license anyway. You are still intitled to have access to what you payed for however so they still can't take away access without "good reason" and you can still sue them etc if you think they have unreasonably taken away access to your games, just like you could if you brought the games retail.

It's shitty but that is how it is, all content with DRM is basically the same as shown by the activivation limits in many games, and the EA fiasco.


Again, this is only information that is visible within the TOS, which the law considers as omission of information if the information isn't clearly visible somewhere else or deductible by context. The fact that appearantly games are considered a substriction is never visible elsewhere, nor deductible by context. With all those shiny green buttons that say 'Buy' you'd never guess that they actually mean 'Subscribe', which is very misleading and also illegal according to consumer protection laws. 

The moment when Valve pulls anything funny, they can expect a big fat lawsuit exploding in their faces.



Meh, nothing new here. This is why I only buy games that use Steam as DRM only when they're ridiculously cheap even if I want them on release (Civ V, Shogun 2, and to some extent Deus Ex: HR). Not that this problem is exclusive to Steam, this pretty much applies to all DRM which is why I avoid games that use any kind of DRM. It's pretty easy to get around that problem by using GOG.com, which, at least according to my knowledge, is the only 100% DRM-free digital distribution service.



zero129 said:
the2real4mafol said:
Damnyouall said:
By the way, it's even worse than expected. I just saw this elsewhere:

"http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Valves-Steam-Latest-to-Erode-Your-Legal-Rights-With-Fine-Print-120625

Points of interest:

1. If Steam decides to ban you from the service, they get to keep all of the money in your wallet (up to $2,000)
2. If you lose, get banned, or in any other way get denied access from one game you purchased in a bundle, they will take away ALL the games in the bundle from you.
3. You agree to ignore your own local laws (in terms of your interaction with Steam), and instead follow US law if you're not located in Europe. If you're in Europe, you still must ignore your own local law and abide by Luxenberg law.
4. You agree to never sue them (class action or individually), instead you agree to ONLY ever us arbitration.
5. You are only renting access to the games. You don't own them in any way, shape or form. If Steam goes under, you will never get access to the games you purchased.
6. If Steam decides to remove a game from it's library that you purchased, too bad. They don't owe you the game, you just lose all access to it.
7. Steam can ban you from the service for any reason they want.

Why is this bad?

Glad you asked! Let's say you decide to write up a critical blog post about Valve or Steam, and they read it and dislike it."

You buy from them, they own your life pretty much. 

luckily i ownly bought 2 cheap games from steam, learning this i won't buy any more from them. Fuck it, i stick to physical media, even on PC.

I feel sorry for my friend, he bought like 150 games from steam (from the sales)  :)

I own 250+ games on steam and i dont feel bad or sorry about this news. im happy i got all them games so cheap.

Plus this is no worse then xbox live or PSN, except if they take away your account and games they are gone for good.

If Valve decide to take away your games its only a matter of doing a simple google search to find a crack that will remove valve from the picture and allow you to play your game again.

Plus as long as the games are downloaded they can be played offline so no problems. they cant take away your games.

So dont feel sorry for your friend be happy that he got so many games for so cheap! :D

they should be yours if you buy them and you should be able to sell them back to steam if you don't want them. The point is, they shouldn't be able to take the games away for no real reason. You give these companies money to buy, it should remain yours, like say a DVD, and you would be able to sell it on, when you're done with it. 

I'm not sorry he got so many cheap games, i wouldn't mind buying some games from there lol, but it's the fact you're only "RENTING" them! If that's the case, steam shouldn't be selling games for £30, it should be more like £5 to £10, as you "rent" them



Xbox Series, PS5 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch 2 will outsell the PS5 by 2030

Zkuq said:
Meh, nothing new here. This is why I only buy games that use Steam as DRM only when they're ridiculously cheap even if I want them on release (Civ V, Shogun 2, and to some extent Deus Ex: HR). Not that this problem is exclusive to Steam, this pretty much applies to all DRM which is why I avoid games that use any kind of DRM. It's pretty easy to get around that problem by using GOG.com, which, at least according to my knowledge, is the only 100% DRM-free digital distribution service.


while steam is DRM, they can not take access to your games away. You can allways choose to play in offline mode, or even with out internet. Steam (besides GoG) is probably the best there is going to be on online distribution as they let you back up your games to harddrive or dvd. and you do not need internet to play said games.



Well you US people better stop gifting us EU people games.. cause:

http://steamunpowered.eu/valve-taking-action-against-gifts-from-usa-and-russia/

People in the Steam gifting-scene from Russia and USA claim that they have received emails from Valve, urging them to stop gifting to players from Europe. On some accounts, buying games has been completely disabled.

This is completely unacceptable. For most of people, buying games via a USA-gifter has never been about getting the game cheaper (at least not for Germans). It has always been about getting the uncut version of a game.

 

Here’s the rest of the text from the reddit user lighthaze.

“I see Valve’s problem from a monetary point-of-view (games are cheaper in Russia / the USA than in Europe), but I think it’s hypocritical of Valve to use the advantages of globalization, while prohibiting it’s users from doing the same.

As an adult German I am allowed to buy uncut games. Why won’t Valve let me? The German community has been asking for an age verification system for years now and we have gotten basically no answers at all.

Hello XXX,

In order to prevent further deactivation of your account by our system due to suspected fraud, do not use other accounts to deliberately circumvent regional restrictions or prices of games with the intention to send these to your main account via the gifting system.

Please do not buy games in regions in which there is a price difference to your home country and do not use VPN or proxy software to circumvent these limitations.

Such activities are not support by the Steam support and accounts using such actions may be closed and excluded from buying games on Steam.

We are creating the prices together with the publishers and try to keep them up to date.

All prices and limitations of low violence versions are done by us and have a legal background.

If you or your account can be connected again with such activities in the future, a permanent deactivation of your account cannot be ruled out.

*Best wishes,

Steam Support Team

--------------------------------------------------------
So there goes our christmas STEAM Secret Santa....

 



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!)