NolSinkler said:
TheLivingShadow said:
I'm sorry I'm answering again to the same post, but honestly I didn't even read the second part the first time around, so I thought that you were one that could be rationally talked to.
I was wrong.
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Thank you for attacking me personally. I suppose that because you've already concluded that I cannot hold rational conversation, any response to you will not be heard. Instead of putting me into your box of irrational people, perhaps you could think about what I've said? It may be that there are supporting thoughts behind what I've said. Or, if I am a fool, then perhaps you could point out to me the errors in my argument. And there are errors. I am not perfect. I am a one who is evolving, changing, and growing, and I hope and believe that the rest of you are doing so as well.
Now, it was said by some above that the hole in my argument is that "a negative cannot be proven", that is, that it cannot be proven that God does not exist. This is true. But if it cannot be proven, then we ought not go around asserting it. If we are scientists, we ought to assert that which we can show evidence for. It was mentioned that we can show that there is no need for God. I will accept this premise as true. However, it does not follow that IF we can show that there is no need for God, THEN we can truthfully claim that there is no God. Therefore, asserting that because I have a coherent theory that does not require God does allow one to truthfully claim that there is no God. One can, however, claim that because my particular set of beliefs does not require God in order to function properly, that I choose not to believe in God. That same person may then argue to others that their particular belief in God is not a necessary component of having a coherent set of beliefs. That person may not argue that the other person's beliefs are incorrect; he has not shown that they are not correct, but only that they are not necessary.
Now, the religious zealot does the same thing as the zealous atheist. Many people will think that they can logically prove the validity of their religion, and so they will press their arguments against others. The others may successfully counter their arguments, but the zealous man will not listen, because a particular argument has fostered their belief, and so they will not allow that argument to be dislodged, because that argument is their foundation. In the case of Christians (which, having been raised in this culture, I am most familiar with) many are convinced by arguments that have had holes poked in them, such as Pascal's wager, or variants of the ontological argument. They will make these arguments the basis of their faith. Sadly enough, the Bible does not ask for you to base your faith on particular logical strains of thought. The Bible asks you to seek first the Kingdom of God. It asks you to place faith in Jesus Christ.
The Bible offers this; "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you". I'm not sure what more you need. That gives a pretty clear way to know about the Bible. Ask, seek, knock. Have you?
Jesus says, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself". That gives a pretty clear way to know about Jesus. Do you want to know if what Jesus said is true? Well, Jesus offers this method to knowing. Seems clear to me.
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This is again a lot of assumptions presented as fact. This is what the religious zealot does; present assumptions as fact. Sadly, this means you will not even allow me to question your assumptions, because you hold them as immutable as the tree outside your window. But question them I will! God does not exist? Prove this. Heaven and Hell do not exist? Show me your argument. I am a group of atoms that will continue to exist after my consciousness and body fades? Why, then, do I separate THIS group of atoms from THE OTHER group of atoms? What a silly division! And yet, we all divide the world as such, as "me", "you", and "the other".
And then you say we would be better off without it. Please, define "better off". You have subscribed to no religious beliefs. You cannot tell us what it means to be "better off".
First off, there are many intelligent people who can't be rationally talked to because they tend to stick for otherwise irrational beliefs/ideas for other reasons that may not be rational, like emotions or family/peer pressure, etc. Though this is not admirable at all, it is seldom condemnable either.
I'm kind of regretting the rudeness of my post above again, but everytime I read/listen to something like the bolded above, it makes my blood boil (not literally, so please don't ask what I mean by that). Especially the rant about being "better off". We're not discussing semantics here, what he is saying should be obvious and you probably do know what he means like just about any human capable of reading and writing would. Then the only reason you would post something like that is to mock the other person and the conversation itself. It's annoying.
Just to be clear, and there is, I guess, a trivially slim chance that I'm wrong about my interpretation, in which case I must revaluate my understanding of the english language; I think that by being "better off" he meant that not following any religion would imply any one of the following or some combination of them:
A) save time and money by not having to perform religious rituals or pay a church if there is one
B) decrease the likelyhood of complications down the road (and by "down the road" I mean as more time passes)
C) not jeopardize the habit and skill of critical thinking by suspending it during religious stuff
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Now on the more serious stuff.
Proving God's existence/non-existence: I'm an agnostic, by which I mean that I don't have a belief about God's existence. I also really don't care. However, the assumption "God doesn't exist" is way more justifiable than the assumption "God exists" and is at a way higher level of thought than "God from religion X exists."
At first glance, it sounds arrogant of me to say so, but examine this for a second: Let me imagine a planet that has taken shape in such a way that it is a massive guitar/piano/apple/*insert any object here*. This planet is only in my imagination at the beginning. However, I could then spread the message that the planet exists. The default position is that this planet does not exist. Therefore, saying it doesn't exist is more justifiable than saying it does, regardless of the reality of the case. Of course, this is true as long as the object hasn't been proven to exist. An object such as this planet can never be proven to not exist because the universe expands faster than the speed of light, and furthermore some galaxies are receding away from us. So though this planet *could* exist given some very odd circumstances, it may be impossible to observe it.