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Forums - Politics Discussion - Romney and Obama - same difference?

insomniac17 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

Maybe a little exaggerated, but his ideas on illegal immigration scare me.

I would say very exaggerated. What about his stance on illegal immigration scares you?

TadpoleJackson said:

The thing about Johnson is that if he actually wins he won't have any support in either the House or Senate. He will be there all on his own, and I doubt he'd be able to actually get anything passed that he wants.

Possibly. But he managed in New Mexico. And more importantly he would be able to keep a lot of crap from passing that Obama or Romney would sign off on in an instant. I think he'd do better than you give him credit for. Especially if enough people backed him and yelled at their representatives or senators to go for what he wanted to get done.

Of course, he is a longshot for winning the race, I'll admit that. He has my vote regardless. I won't vote for either Obama or Romney, because I see that as giving into something that I can't agree with.

What I really want to see, is for everyone to know that he's in the race. I want people to hear his views, and realize that there's more to politics than just what you hear from the usual Democrat/Republican outlets. So many people don't even know that other points of view even exist.

He is pro-illegal immigration. That's what I don't like. Other than that he is pretty good but his illegal immigration stance cancels out any good.



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nuckles87 said:

Obama and Romney are not the same, and it only takes cursory research of their policy positions to see that. They have completely different rhetoric on tax policy, health care, the role of government in protecting the environment and the economy, among other things.

Rhetoric is not policy.

nuckles87 said:

And, frankly, unbridled libertarianism will do a heck of a lot more damage to America then Obama's mild conservatism will ever do.

Say what?

nuckles87 said:

Obama's mild conservatism

nuckles87 said:

We had higher taxes and more government regulation in the 1950s, and our economy was doing a heck of a lot better then then it is now.

I'm sure the rest of the developed world destroying itself in a giant fucking war had nothing to do with that. Being the only game in town has its advantages. Keep livin' in the fifties, you crazy diamond!



Same circus, different clowns.



 

McDonaldsGuy said:

He is pro-illegal immigration. That's what I don't like. Other than that he is pretty good but his illegal immigration stance cancels out any good.

Not from my understanding. Source.

Simplify Legal Immigration:

  • It should be easier for a potential immigrant to get a work visa. Potential immigrants should pass a background check, and then be issued a Social Security card, which would allow them to pay income, payroll, and all other taxes workers pay.
  • There should be a two-year grace period for illegal immigrants to attain work visas so they can continue contributing to America and begin taking part in American society openly.
  • Immigrants with temporary work visas should have access to the normal procedures for gaining permanent status and citizenship, and should be able to bring their families to the U.S. after demonstrating ability to support them financially.

Tackle Illegal Immigration:

  • Legalizing marijuana will reduce border violence and illegal immigration significantly, decreasing the U.S.-Mexican drug trade by 70 percent. Without a monopoly on the marijuana trade, Mexican drug cartels will have vastly diminished incentives to violate U.S. law and risk capture.
  • Streamline the legal immigration process to reduce illegal immigration and allow the U.S. to know who enters the country and for what reasons.
  • Enforce a 'one strike, you're out' rule for immigrants who circumvent the streamlined work visa process.

He acknowledges that there are many illegals here now, and promotes a way of allowing them to be here legally. Deporting all of them would consume ungodly amounts of resources, and I think it's a sensible solution to those currently here.

I also think his solution for solving the illegal immigration problem is sound. It'd reduce the challenge of coming here legally, reduce a large reason of why they come here illegally (drug wars), and be more strict on those fewer people who do continue to violate the law. Here's an alternate source if you're curious to read a bit more. I have never read anywhere that he is pro illegal immigration, however.



nuckles87 said:

Obama and Romney are not the same, and it only takes cursory research of their policy positions to see that. They have completely different rhetoric on tax policy, health care, the role of government in protecting the environment and the economy, among other things.

If you say they are the same, then you are either trying to make your own candidate look good, or you have not cared enough to pay attention to the campaign. They are two very different people with different policy positions (albeit Romney has had to flip flop on a variety of his old positions and policies to get to where he is and reflect the stance of the extremists controlling his party).

And, frankly, unbridled libertarianism will do a heck of a lot more damage to America then Obama's mild conservatism will ever do. One only needs to look at the great depression of the 1930s to see where decades of small government not regulating the behavior of corporations will do to an economy. The current problem isn't too much government control. The problem is not enough. We had higher taxes and more government regulation in the 1950s, and our economy was doing a heck of a lot better then then it is now.

Why even wait for more government intervention to happen in the States? I hear France just elected Hollande, the Socialist as President. It looks like they are moving in a more favorable direction to what you want. Go there and see how it works out.




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McDonaldsGuy said:
insomniac17 said:


Gary Johnson looks exactly the same as Romney and Obama to me. A few differences here and there, but he would be just as damaging as Romney and Obama.


By far the most powerful political ad I've ever seen.  I'd vote for him, now that Paul is out of the running and retiring from Congress due to his age.

One thing I know for sure is that I will not be voting Democrat or Republican anymore. 



 

TadpoleJackson said:
insomniac17 said:

*video*

The thing about Johnson is that if he actually wins he won't have any support in either the House or Senate. He will be there all on his own, and I doubt he'd be able to actually get anything passed that he wants. 


That was one of the major arguments made about Paul, but I don't necessarily think that's the case.  If a majority of Americans elect a Libertarian like Johnson for president, that means they want that direction for the government.  It would give Johnson a ton of support from both parties, because Democrats and Republicans would be too scared to block him for fear of losing their seats two years later.  I think he'd have a lot more support than you realize.



 

nuckles87 said:

And, frankly, unbridled libertarianism will do a heck of a lot more damage to America then Obama's mild conservatism will ever do. One only needs to look at the great depression of the 1930s to see where decades of small government not regulating the behavior of corporations will do to an economy. The current problem isn't too much government control. The problem is not enough. We had higher taxes and more government regulation in the 1950s, and our economy was doing a heck of a lot better then then it is now.

My problem with this is everyone always says that it's not enough. We need to spend more. We need government to do more. At what point does that start to help? It is clearly not helping now.  At what level of spending and intervention does this begin to work, and what causes that to suddenly happen?

You cite the Great Depression as reason for why libertarianism doesn't work. I am not an expert on the matter, and I'm sure that there are others on this site who know more than me. But my understanding is that it was made far worse by more government intervention, and higher government spending.

This video was linked in a previous thread on here. It does a much better job of explaining things. It is long, but I would encourage you to watch it.



insomniac17 said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

He is pro-illegal immigration. That's what I don't like. Other than that he is pretty good but his illegal immigration stance cancels out any good.

Not from my understanding. Source.

Simplify Legal Immigration:

  • It should be easier for a potential immigrant to get a work visa. Potential immigrants should pass a background check, and then be issued a Social Security card, which would allow them to pay income, payroll, and all other taxes workers pay.
  • There should be a two-year grace period for illegal immigrants to attain work visas so they can continue contributing to America and begin taking part in American society openly.
  • Immigrants with temporary work visas should have access to the normal procedures for gaining permanent status and citizenship, and should be able to bring their families to the U.S. after demonstrating ability to support them financially.

Tackle Illegal Immigration:

  • Legalizing marijuana will reduce border violence and illegal immigration significantly, decreasing the U.S.-Mexican drug trade by 70 percent. Without a monopoly on the marijuana trade, Mexican drug cartels will have vastly diminished incentives to violate U.S. law and risk capture.
  • Streamline the legal immigration process to reduce illegal immigration and allow the U.S. to know who enters the country and for what reasons.
  • Enforce a 'one strike, you're out' rule for immigrants who circumvent the streamlined work visa process.

He acknowledges that there are many illegals here now, and promotes a way of allowing them to be here legally. Deporting all of them would consume ungodly amounts of resources, and I think it's a sensible solution to those currently here.

I also think his solution for solving the illegal immigration problem is sound. It'd reduce the challenge of coming here legally, reduce a large reason of why they come here illegally (drug wars), and be more strict on those fewer people who do continue to violate the law. Here's an alternate source if you're curious to read a bit more. I have never read anywhere that he is pro illegal immigration, however.


Deporting all of them will take very little resources, in fact, you will only have to deport very few of them (most will self deport). We have the resources to go to war with multiple countries but can't protect our own? No.

There should be NO allowing them to have a way here legally - we tried that in the 80s and it failed MISERABLY. This Gary Johnson guy clearly has no clue what's going on here.

http://www.ontheissues.org/gary_johnson.htm#Immigration

I live in California and cannot support anyone that supports illegal immigration. Too bad cause Gary looks like he'd be pretty good if it wasn't for that mark.



nuckles87 said:

Obama and Romney are not the same, and it only takes cursory research of their policy positions to see that. They have completely different rhetoric on tax policy, health care, the role of government in protecting the environment and the economy, among other things.

If you say they are the same, then you are either trying to make your own candidate look good, or you have not cared enough to pay attention to the campaign. They are two very different people with different policy positions (albeit Romney has had to flip flop on a variety of his old positions and policies to get to where he is and reflect the stance of the extremists controlling his party).

And, frankly, unbridled libertarianism will do a heck of a lot more damage to America then Obama's mild conservatism will ever do. One only needs to look at the great depression of the 1930s to see where decades of small government not regulating the behavior of corporations will do to an economy. The current problem isn't too much government control. The problem is not enough. We had higher taxes and more government regulation in the 1950s, and our economy was doing a heck of a lot better then then it is now.


It seems fairly obvious that you're an Obama supporter, yes?  Obviously if you support Romney or Obama then you would be unable to look past your blindness, take a step back, and see them for what they really are.