By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - How does giving out more visa/green cards create more jobs for Americans?

richardhutnik on 19 July 2012

I have been on the web, trying to look up information on the said 30 GOP job creation bills, said to have passed the House, and sit in the senate.  I was wondering exactly if they were jobs bills, or the political equivalent of pass whatever agenda you want, wrapped in the name of a hot topic (I recall seeing, for example, when I was at IBM, everything got labelled "on demand" because that was what was being pushed).

So, I see this on the GOP site about their job creation bill (well, supposed to be job creation, but is labelled "for job creators"):

http://www.gop.gov/indepth/jobs/facts

 

Visa System for Highly Skilled Workers
Back to Top
Our current visa system is failing job creators who need access to a skilled and specialized workforce. America has always stood as a beacon of opportunity to thebest and brightest from around the world and the nation has benefitted from their contributions. Yet today, our visa system is not addressing our economic needs. Leading high-tech companies in America are struggling to hire qualified employees while the government visa system sends home highly skilled workers educated in America’s universities.

After a systematic review of our visa system, the Congress should undertake prudent reforms. The House Judiciary Committee is reviewing our visa system to determine the needs of American employers and the reforms necessary to ensurethat American businesses maintain their leading edge in innovation and technology development. Possible solutions include keeping the most accomplished graduates in math, science and other critical fields here in America as well as making it easier for start-up entrepreneurs to obtain visas.
One part there kind of fits, which is the one about start-up entrepreneurs starting up in the country.  But the way it is, is mainly more than doubling the amount of Visa:
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/gops-claim-house-passed-30-jobs-bills-bogus

HR 3012 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011

HR 3012 would expand job immigration beyond current limits by eliminating employment-based immigrant visa caps and raising the percentage of total visas granted to 15% from 7%. For this one, I'll say it IS a jobs bill, but not a jobs bill for American workers. It is the "Elite Immigration Jobs Bill of 2011".

http://www.gop.gov/bill/112/1/hr3012

 

Question: How the heck does, outside of creating more start-ups, exposing American workers to foreign workers, going to hire more of them?

 

 



Around the Network
HappySqurriel on 19 July 2012

I think the intention is to prevent companies from opening offices in other countries to attract skilled workers and off-shoring the support staff in these offices. As a software developer I've been contacted by several large/well known firms, and countless smaller firms, from the United States because there are far too few developers in the states; and if this continues I would expect many of these firms just to open offices outside the states because most developers are not interested in moving to the United States.



Netyaroze on 19 July 2012

Educated people from abroad can have skills exceeding the skills of americans. Getting them into the country helps companies to be competitive. America is not Number 1 on all fields it can create jobs because companies get stronger through skilled people.Every Country wants the elite of another country.



Soleron on 19 July 2012

Plausible mechanism: America is short of skilled workers in specific categories. Finding and employing these people allows business to proceed so then many lower positions can be filled: this person needs the support of sales, maintenance, administrative people etc.

Simpler explanation is that they wanted a whole bunch of unrelated stuff to pass with the headline purpose, this happens all the time.



Viper1 on 19 July 2012

Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Around the Network
Mr Khan on 19 July 2012
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

HappySqurriel on 19 July 2012
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.

Maybe it is different in the United States, but most countries have specific skilled labour visas and you have to have education & experience in fields where there is a demonstrated shortage of domestic workers to qualify. Under these rules it is unlikely that any of these people would take a job away from a local worker.



richardhutnik on 19 July 2012
HappySqurriel said:
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.

Maybe it is different in the United States, but most countries have specific skilled labour visas and you have to have education & experience in fields where there is a demonstrated shortage of domestic workers to qualify. Under these rules it is unlikely that any of these people would take a job away from a local worker.

The whole "Demonstrated shortage" in the IT field is that the industry has run VERY picky standards for what they look for, and don't want to train anyone, and will get rid of workers and replace them with a said perfect mix.  If you know C++, and proficient in Object Oriented Design and coding, it doesn't matter if they want Java.  You need X years of Java.  Recruiters will also say, if you were out of work in the IT field for over 6 months, they can't place you, because your skills are too old.  With this as a reality, it sounds like the IT industry has more than enough workers, right?  How can an industry being incredibily picky, suddenly claim it has a labor shortage.



HappySqurriel on 19 July 2012
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.

Maybe it is different in the United States, but most countries have specific skilled labour visas and you have to have education & experience in fields where there is a demonstrated shortage of domestic workers to qualify. Under these rules it is unlikely that any of these people would take a job away from a local worker.

The whole "Demonstrated shortage" in the IT field is that the industry has run VERY picky standards for what they look for, and don't want to train anyone, and will get rid of workers and replace them with a said perfect mix.  If you know C++, and proficient in Object Oriented Design and coding, it doesn't matter if they want Java.  You need X years of Java.  Recruiters will also say, if you were out of work in the IT field for over 6 months, they can't place you, because your skills are too old.  With this as a reality, it sounds like the IT industry has more than enough workers, right?  How can an industry being incredibily picky, suddenly claim it has a labor shortage.

I haven't seen either personally, and I've been working for over 10 years ... Most companies I have worked in treat Java, C++, and C# as being similar enough and are willing to interview anyone who has enough experience with a well known programming language. I've known many developers who took 6 to 18 months off mid-career to travel and when they got back into the country they tended to have jobs within weeks.

The core problem with the IT field in general is an unwillingness to hire junior people, but after a person has a couple years experience they can typically find jobs anywhere. This is part of the reason for the skilled labour shortage, but a lot of the reason they avoid junior people is because they don't graduate with the skills they need.



Viper1 on 19 July 2012
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.

Maybe it is different in the United States, but most countries have specific skilled labour visas and you have to have education & experience in fields where there is a demonstrated shortage of domestic workers to qualify. Under these rules it is unlikely that any of these people would take a job away from a local worker.

The whole "Demonstrated shortage" in the IT field is that the industry has run VERY picky standards for what they look for, and don't want to train anyone, and will get rid of workers and replace them with a said perfect mix.  If you know C++, and proficient in Object Oriented Design and coding, it doesn't matter if they want Java.  You need X years of Java.  Recruiters will also say, if you were out of work in the IT field for over 6 months, they can't place you, because your skills are too old.  With this as a reality, it sounds like the IT industry has more than enough workers, right?  How can an industry being incredibily picky, suddenly claim it has a labor shortage.

Compeiting for a job is still compeiting for a job.

I don't care if there are 2 technologists or 2,000 going for the same job.   You still only hire 1 guy.

And they have every right to be picky.  If they need a Java guy and you don't know Java, they aren't going to keep you onboard at $50,000+ per year and send you to school for training when they can just as easily hire a Java guy and save the money it would cost to train you.

There is also the fact that market growth in the IT field is still high.  It can handle an increase in potential technologists without crowding out lesser experienced individuals.

 

And then you have the pay to market volume factor.    If the IT field gets a boost in highly skilled technologists, that will cause in increase in average pay in the field which creates an average increase in costs to consumers.   Increased consumer costs due to pay means a market segment has opened up where you can bid jobs at the lower rate (the rate before the increase) and make out damn good.

Work the system, don't let it work you.



The rEVOLution is not being televised