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Forums - Politics Discussion - How does giving out more visa/green cards create more jobs for Americans?

HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
Importing skilled workers in the early part of the 20th century is how America became such a dominant labor force to begin with.

Why not try to emulate that again while simultaneously reducing the number of illegal entries into the US?

Better question...if this is not a good bill, what makes it bad?

I think Richard's poking at the idea that making it easier for skilled foreigners to come in would take jobs from skilled Americans, but given that the visa sponsorship process is always more laborious than just hiring someone domestically, this wouldn't be an issue if we had enough skilled Americans.

Of course, i'm inclined to be bitter on the issue just because i don't have a real career job, but the sectors i'm looking into wouldn't be effected by this, so I see the wisdom in it as others in the thread have described it: e.g. it's about keeping growth in these sectors located in America.

Maybe it is different in the United States, but most countries have specific skilled labour visas and you have to have education & experience in fields where there is a demonstrated shortage of domestic workers to qualify. Under these rules it is unlikely that any of these people would take a job away from a local worker.

The whole "Demonstrated shortage" in the IT field is that the industry has run VERY picky standards for what they look for, and don't want to train anyone, and will get rid of workers and replace them with a said perfect mix.  If you know C++, and proficient in Object Oriented Design and coding, it doesn't matter if they want Java.  You need X years of Java.  Recruiters will also say, if you were out of work in the IT field for over 6 months, they can't place you, because your skills are too old.  With this as a reality, it sounds like the IT industry has more than enough workers, right?  How can an industry being incredibily picky, suddenly claim it has a labor shortage.

I haven't seen either personally, and I've been working for over 10 years ... Most companies I have worked in treat Java, C++, and C# as being similar enough and are willing to interview anyone who has enough experience with a well known programming language. I've known many developers who took 6 to 18 months off mid-career to travel and when they got back into the country they tended to have jobs within weeks.

The core problem with the IT field in general is an unwillingness to hire junior people, but after a person has a couple years experience they can typically find jobs anywhere. This is part of the reason for the skilled labour shortage, but a lot of the reason they avoid junior people is because they don't graduate with the skills they need.

The matter of unwillingness to train spans all professions. Everyone wants you to have prior experience, and no-one is willing to give experience number one, unless you're willing to spend years at an unpaid internship, as one or two semesters doesn't cut it anymore (and still have to wade through hordes of others fighting to be slaves)

okay, now i'm injecting my bitterness in here. Excuse me



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Because increased skilled labourers increase the number of jobs available - both skilled and unskilled.



SamuelRSmith said:
Because increased skilled labourers increase the number of jobs available - both skilled and unskilled.

Clarify context you mean that, as if you mean a company hiring skilled labor will demand more labor, or do you mean the economy on the whole, because hiring skilled labor means that one person gets a normally higher paying job and that means they have increased demands put on the economy, which generates activity that requires increased hiring?  Second, post some evidence to back up your claim.  



http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57473046-92/tech-layoffs-hit-3-year-high-of-51529-in-first-half-of-2012/

The first half of 2012 showed that layoffs are at a 3 year high. The high tech industry apparently has too much manpower.



richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Because increased skilled labourers increase the number of jobs available - both skilled and unskilled.

Clarify context you mean that, as if you mean a company hiring skilled labor will demand more labor, or do you mean the economy on the whole, because hiring skilled labor means that one person gets a normally higher paying job and that means they have increased demands put on the economy, which generates activity that requires increased hiring?  Second, post some evidence to back up your claim.  

Highly Skilled labor is the root of productivity, since they're the kinds that invent new products and increase productivity on existing ones, and thus make room for the business to expand and hire semi-skilled or unskilled labor, as well as peripheral employees (from human resources to janitors and everything in between)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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I would prefer to have them work here and pay taxes than for the company to open a branch in another country.



Mr Khan said:
HappySqurriel said:

The matter of unwillingness to train spans all professions. Everyone wants you to have prior experience, and no-one is willing to give experience number one, unless you're willing to spend years at an unpaid internship, as one or two semesters doesn't cut it anymore (and still have to wade through hordes of others fighting to be slaves)

okay, now i'm injecting my bitterness in here. Excuse me


I understand the bitterness, but the thing that bothers me about not training is that the companies that  hire junior people tend to be better off for it ...

When companies hire senior people to do work that should be handed off to junior team members their employees tend to get bored pretty quckly, under-perform, and then leave for greener pastures.  If there is a healthier balance between junior, intermediate and senior employees everyone has work that is at an appropriate challenge level, career development is a fairly organic process, and everyone is happier.



richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Because increased skilled labourers increase the number of jobs available - both skilled and unskilled.

Clarify context you mean that, as if you mean a company hiring skilled labor will demand more labor, or do you mean the economy on the whole, because hiring skilled labor means that one person gets a normally higher paying job and that means they have increased demands put on the economy, which generates activity that requires increased hiring?  Second, post some evidence to back up your claim.  


Education is just another form of capital. The more of it you have, the greater the productivity of the economy, wages rise, and thus so does everything else.

But, immigrants are slightly different from just normal trained citizens. Why? Because they're risk takers. Somebody who is going to risk everything to move to another country, is much more likely to risk everything in starting a business, or investing a large sum of money. It's not surprising that a large chunk of businesses, large and small, have their roots in migrant labour.

And, I'm not going to post evidence, no point. A simple Google search will provide thousands of articles, studies, and what-have-you disputing and agreeing with my point, so it proves nothing.



HappySqurriel said:
Mr Khan said:
HappySqurriel said:

The matter of unwillingness to train spans all professions. Everyone wants you to have prior experience, and no-one is willing to give experience number one, unless you're willing to spend years at an unpaid internship, as one or two semesters doesn't cut it anymore (and still have to wade through hordes of others fighting to be slaves)

okay, now i'm injecting my bitterness in here. Excuse me


I understand the bitterness, but the thing that bothers me about not training is that the companies that  hire junior people tend to be better off for it ...

When companies hire senior people to do work that should be handed off to junior team members their employees tend to get bored pretty quckly, under-perform, and then leave for greener pastures.  If there is a healthier balance between junior, intermediate and senior employees everyone has work that is at an appropriate challenge level, career development is a fairly organic process, and everyone is happier.


It really all depends on what you're expecting when you first enter the labour force. There are so many graduate schemes, entry level jobs, apprenticeships, etc., out there.

I just think that so many people have an unrealistic expectation of what work is going to be like. So many people on my course (Computer Science) believe that they will be able to walk out, and pick up a high-paying job in the Fortune 500, or some kind of job at Naughty Dog, or something. When they don't get the jobs that they wanted immediately, they hold out, pass up some real sloggish work, and then try to get in the game a few years down the line, when they're completely out-competed.

I've managed to get a job developing technology for HSBC in Hong Kong for 12 months. The money isn't fantastic, and I've literally had to move half way around the world, but I will now already have a year's worth of experience once I've finished my degree. Take one or two graduate placements, perhaps one in the UK, one in the US, and I would have clocked up a couple of years experience, for multiple companies, in multiple countries.

Work a career ladder for 10-15 years, and then leave and start my own business.