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Forums - Sony Discussion - Ueda speaks about The Last Guardian.

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Slimebeast said:
WiiBox3 said:
Slimebeast said:
Zim said:
Slimebeast said:

I think normally with an expected 4 year development time for this type of game and a typical ~$20 million dev budget it would have had a decent chance at breaking even. Even making a good profit if it met all expectations selling 1.5-2 million.

Now with a 8 year dev time if it comes out in 2014 (and I'm being generous here since SotC came out in 2005), and dev costs with a 50 member team is ~$5 million per year, and add to that $5-10 million total for promotion and marketing, we end up at a total cost of $45-50 million.

Sony collects around $30 per copy sold in a best case scenario, meaning the game could break even at ~1.5 million lifetime copies. Unlikely but not entirely impossible.



Pretty good estimate I think. Only thing I would say you are off on is marketing and promotion. $5-10million would be a tiny amount. At the very start of the generation Lost Planet had $20million in marketing. Admittedly that game had a reasonable marketing push but it was also 6 years ago, or 7-8 by the time this game is released. 

I would say $50million isn't an unreasonable guess though. I think Team Ico is a little smaller than 50 members but then there is the extra cost of having to rope in people from other parts of sony etc. 

Team Ico's model simply isn't going to work going forward. I know they aren't a big team but they also aren't exactly some tiny indie team. You can't have a reasonable sized team with over 6 years between releases and still no sight of when they will actually have a release. 

EDIT: Should add joystiq had an article about Studio Cipher Prime. Which only employs 4 people. Their montly costs were 15k. 

Good. You too believe in high marketing costs (in that publishers have them, not that it's a good thing). I have debated many here on VGC who always claim my marketing cost estimations are too high.

With $5-10 million for marketing I was thinking a scenario where Sony has half-abandoned the game and almost silently releases it, as hype has died down and perhaps the game will come at an ill time (it's possible it's a PS3-only release well into next gen).

This article says Team ICO is 50 guys (thord paragraph). With the problems TLG has had I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit smaller now though.

http://www.1up.com/news/team-ico-boss-fumito-ueda-leaving-sony


If they are buying TV advertising involved, yes marketing is expensive. Just one Prime time spot in LA only can cost more than $5,000. That's just one commercial in one market aired only once. If the company decides to buy one national spot during the Super Bowl that is going to run $1 - $4 million dollars, just for 30 seconds.

Edit: I'm not just making this up. Buying TV advertising is what I do for a living.

$5000 for one ad in just the LA area?

Btw, I think Dante's Inferno had a super bowl commercial. And yet it sold horribly. despite being a pretty good game (to me it was a fantastic game).


I'm pretty sure they thought I would sell a lot better.



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Slimebeast said:

Good. You too believe in high marketing costs (in that publishers have them, not that it's a good thing). I have debated many here on VGC who always claim my marketing cost estimations are too high.

With $5-10 million for marketing I was thinking a scenario where Sony has half-abandoned the game and almost silently releases it, as hype has died down and perhaps the game will come at an ill time (it's possible it's a PS3-only release well into next gen).

This article says Team ICO is 50 guys (thord paragraph). With the problems TLG has had I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit smaller now though.

http://www.1up.com/news/team-ico-boss-fumito-ueda-leaving-sony


Ah right. I just remember hearing they were a small team. I hadn't seen that article. Your estimate is fine then. I'm not sure some people realise just how much it actually costs to keep a team of that size running for years. 

People underestimate marketing costs for everything, even movies. While there are obviously some games where the marketing budget is tiny, generally speaking with titles in production for years at bigger studios the budget isn't going to be small. As I recall Battlefield 3 had a marketing budget of $100million. Obivously that is an extreme case and isn't the normal but it shows how high they can go. Lost Planet was $20million. I remember it getting a fair marketing push but certainly plenty of games this generation have had the same or more marketing. 

I too think there is a risk with The Last Guardian that it comes out on PS3 after next gen hype is already here. I've seen some people stating how they think it will be shifted to PS4 for launch but given that Team Ico have never made a HD game before and their only experience of doing so is on PS3. Then that the PS4 is likely completely changing architecture. Then that given TLG's technical difficulties it is likely it has had to be extremely customised to the PS3. I just think it would be a tall order to expect it to be a PS4 game near launch. Unless they had extreme foresight and have already been targetting it for PS4 for a while.



Turkish says and I'm allowed to quote that: Uncharted 3 and God Of War 3 look better than Unreal Engine 4 games will or the tech demo does. Also the Naughty Dog PS3 ENGINE PLAYS better than the UE4 ENGINE.

Honestly wouldnt be surprised to see it pushed as a PS4 launch title.



                            

Carl2291 said:
Honestly wouldnt be surprised to see it pushed as a PS4 launch title.


Maybe the only way this game could make profit



Carl2291 said:
Honestly wouldnt be surprised to see it pushed as a PS4 launch title.


Nah...

 

Like I said, Sony Santa Monica has stepped in because Sony's Japanese developers don't know how to program well enough.

 

Sony Santa Monica will see the project release this gen.



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Quite a lot of negativity in this thread. Didn't Alan Wake, GT5 and Fez finally come out too? A game doesn't automatically have to be terrible if it doesn't fit the 1 or 2 year development cycle.
Team ico should have made some money from the Ico/SotC collection. I'm guessing TLG will first come out for ps3 and will get a relaunch on ps4.

If studios like Team Ico didn't take a chance on something difficult to realize we would just be left with yearly updates of the same stuff. I can wait and am not worried at all it will turn into a DNF. It is still being worked on by the original team, on the same console with the same vision. Nothing like DNF at all.



SvennoJ said:
Quite a lot of negativity in this thread. Didn't Alan Wake, GT5 and Fez finally come out too? A game doesn't automatically have to be terrible if it doesn't fit the 1 or 2 year development cycle.
Team ico should have made some money from the Ico/SotC collection. I'm guessing TLG will first come out for ps3 and will get a relaunch on ps4.

If studios like Team Ico didn't take a chance on something difficult to realize we would just be left with yearly updates of the same stuff. I can wait and am not worried at all it will turn into a DNF. It is still being worked on by the original team, on the same console with the same vision. Nothing like DNF at all.


None of the games you listed are very comparable. Fez was 5 years in the making however it is an indie game. It wasn't being made by a studio that needed constant salaries, benefits, an office etc. It was a few people making it themselves. 

Alan Wake would be an okay comparison if something about TLG was known, being shown etc. It was 6 and a half years between MP2 and it. Alan Wake was also completely redesigned at one point, originally being an open world game. Remedy were in very good shape after having sold the Max Payne Ip. A six and a half year gap for Team Ico would have meant TLG was released a few months ago. As it is we still have basically seen nothing of the game.

GT5. Again it was just a 6 year gap between GT4 and GT5. However in that time Polphony also made another racing game for the ps2, one for the psp and put out what was basically a demo to show work on GT5 was being done. Again with the TLG we still have nothing. 

I think people should be concerned about a game when the studio hasn't released anything in coming up to 7 years and their game has basically been vapourware for 3 or so years. I don't think people are even worried it will be terrible. Simply that there is a chance it could still be years out and if it doesn't light up sales charts then you better believe Sony will start wondering if keeping Team Ico around in its current form is worth it. If we had some recent trailers, screenshots etc of TLG I think people would be far less concerned. I don't think it has turned into the next DNF in terms of comicality yet however it is well beyond being compared to Fez, AW and GT5. 

I will also point out that the trailer, concept and what was said about TLG seem very similar to Majin and the forsaken kingdom. So it really doesn't seem like some impossible task and something very different. Considering Majin ended up around 75% in reviews I would even say you could take that game give it great graphics, tighten the controls, improve the atmosphere and bish bash bosh job done. You have a critically loved game.

As an aside I don't think doing a HD 'remaster' counts as releasing a game. Honestly I'm not even sure how much work had to be done in the first place but it seems Bluepoint were the ones doing the porting and Team Ico were perhaps in a consulting role. 



Turkish says and I'm allowed to quote that: Uncharted 3 and God Of War 3 look better than Unreal Engine 4 games will or the tech demo does. Also the Naughty Dog PS3 ENGINE PLAYS better than the UE4 ENGINE.

Zim said:

None of the games you listed are very comparable.

I think people should be concerned about a game when the studio hasn't released anything in coming up to 7 years and their game has basically been vapourware for 3 or so years. I don't think people are even worried it will be terrible. Simply that there is a chance it could still be years out and if it doesn't light up sales charts then you better believe Sony will start wondering if keeping Team Ico around in its current form is worth it. If we had some recent trailers, screenshots etc of TLG I think people would be far less concerned. I don't think it has turned into the next DNF in terms of comicality yet however it is well beyond being compared to Fez, AW and GT5. 

I will also point out that the trailer, concept and what was said about TLG seem very similar to Majin and the forsaken kingdom. So it really doesn't seem like some impossible task and something very different. Considering Majin ended up around 75% in reviews I would even say you could take that game give it great graphics, tighten the controls, improve the atmosphere and bish bash bosh job done. You have a critically loved game.

As an aside I don't think doing a HD 'remaster' counts as releasing a game. Honestly I'm not even sure how much work had to be done in the first place but it seems Bluepoint were the ones doing the porting and Team Ico were perhaps in a consulting role. 

Well maybe Prey then, 1995-2006. Still turned out to be pretty good although portal stole it's thunder in the mean time.

Majin and the forsaken Kingdom was a good game but I don't think it's very comparable at all. You pretty much have direct control over the Majin and he's very limited in where he can go.
I think the major difficulties they're having with TLG is in realizing the vision of an autonomous AI of that size that has to be able to navigate through all the architecture in full 3D while responding to what the player is doing. I really hope they can pull it off without having to redesign major parts and restrict where he can go. I have already played and enjoyed Majin and the forsaken kingdom, not waiting for a look alike. (A follow up sure, WiiU maybe?) I am however very curious to see what they can do with TLG. Ofcourse whether it will ultimately be worth it remains to be seen.

No more trailers and screenshots is both a blessing and a curse. I don't really want anymore spoilers, and I guess they're also hesitant in showing things that might have to be scrapped at the very end. Still I hope to see some more at TGS.



At this point I think most people have given up on this game actually coming out.

I say cancelled it and start a new project. If the new project doesn't get released within 2-3 years, I would fire everyone involved with the team and shut the studio down. Sony needs to fix their Japanese development studios. So little comes from them and they don't sell well. So I would make some major changes.



I hope is the best one they have ever made.