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Forums - Politics - Do people actually understand how welfare in America works?

richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
It all depends on who you are and how you look at it.

I've been a landlord over tenants who were on welfare for considerable periods of time. They were always the worst to deal with. Rarely paid on time, but always had beer and cigarettes. Kids would be in tatters, but mom would have decent clothes most of the time.

Like others have said, welfare should begin and end inside the society itself - what it can contribute to help the needy. It sickens me how much money I have to pay out in taxes for Social Security, Medicare, and other welfare-type systems.... Arguably 60-70% of what I am taxed goes towards some sort of redistribution as opposed to services I get.

God knows that if I didn't have to pay out that 60-70% (which amounts to quite a bit of money), I could do a lot more for the needy in my area.

I will go with the reasoning found in Mike Huckabee's book, "Do the Right Thing" which looks at two towns and asks which one would have lower taxes.  One is a high crime inner city where people are hostile, there is drugs and the whole lot.  The other is one with better values, and people doing the right thing, and being good neighbors.  Mike asks which one would have lower taxes, and I believe lower costs, to live.   It utterly sucks that you have that with kids, where the mother uses the kids, and barely takes care of them.  All that ends up causing an even large nanny state to pop up, unless either people stop caring how children are treated, or starts to intervene as a community.  When they don't, the government grows.  What I find folly is that there are people who believe all these problems will just go away if you stop funding government.  That is cart before the horse, in my opinion, although the cart can contribute.


The problem with your analogy is that if the towns are in the same state the taxes are going to generally be similar, because welfare payments generally come from the state. The rich town with little crime, good neighbors, and so on will be paying their taxes to help out the other town with the higher rate of poverty, and more problems. That is what is generally happening with most welfare payments - You take from people and areas that are doing well, and give them to areas that aren't. More often than, not, the bad areas do not improve. You see this with the wealthier blue states and the poorer red states in the US - New Yorkers are paying federal taxes to pay for the poor person in Mississippi and so on.

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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zimbawawa said:
Mr Khan said:
Marks said:
Welfare creates the welfare trap where it's easier to just stay on welfare than get a job that would only pay slightly better. I could get behind the negative income tax, which encourages you to find work, since your income would be boosted.

But of course my top option would be to get rid of welfare all together. I'm a 20 year old with no past work experience, this summer is the first time I've tried to find a job, and I was able to get a job for the summer within a week of sending out my resume. The employer got back to me in I think it was 1 or 2 days after I emailed him my resume, an interview was set up, and he hired me on the spot after the interview. I don't get why the government lets people stay on welfare for so long when it's easy as fuck to get a job. If welfare is to stay around it should be for a maximum period of about a month after getting laid off/fired. If I can find a job within a week with no past work experience, then you can't tell me the people on welfare now can't find jobs.

Easy as fuck to get a job? What universe are you living in?

Lol. Mark you're very ignorant

 

That post I made was days ago and has already been addressed. You're late to the party. 



mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
It all depends on who you are and how you look at it.

I've been a landlord over tenants who were on welfare for considerable periods of time. They were always the worst to deal with. Rarely paid on time, but always had beer and cigarettes. Kids would be in tatters, but mom would have decent clothes most of the time.

Like others have said, welfare should begin and end inside the society itself - what it can contribute to help the needy. It sickens me how much money I have to pay out in taxes for Social Security, Medicare, and other welfare-type systems.... Arguably 60-70% of what I am taxed goes towards some sort of redistribution as opposed to services I get.

God knows that if I didn't have to pay out that 60-70% (which amounts to quite a bit of money), I could do a lot more for the needy in my area.

I will go with the reasoning found in Mike Huckabee's book, "Do the Right Thing" which looks at two towns and asks which one would have lower taxes.  One is a high crime inner city where people are hostile, there is drugs and the whole lot.  The other is one with better values, and people doing the right thing, and being good neighbors.  Mike asks which one would have lower taxes, and I believe lower costs, to live.   It utterly sucks that you have that with kids, where the mother uses the kids, and barely takes care of them.  All that ends up causing an even large nanny state to pop up, unless either people stop caring how children are treated, or starts to intervene as a community.  When they don't, the government grows.  What I find folly is that there are people who believe all these problems will just go away if you stop funding government.  That is cart before the horse, in my opinion, although the cart can contribute.


The problem with your analogy is that if the towns are in the same state the taxes are going to generally be similar, because welfare payments generally come from the state. The rich town with little crime, good neighbors, and so on will be paying their taxes to help out the other town with the higher rate of poverty, and more problems. That is what is generally happening with most welfare payments - You take from people and areas that are doing well, and give them to areas that aren't. More often than, not, the bad areas do not improve. You see this with the wealthier blue states and the poorer red states in the US - New Yorkers are paying federal taxes to pay for the poor person in Mississippi and so on.

 

Point is, which Huckabee brought out was, costs are lower when social problems are lower.  You don't make problems go away merely by cutting funding, is my take on that point.



richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:


The problem with your analogy is that if the towns are in the same state the taxes are going to generally be similar, because welfare payments generally come from the state. The rich town with little crime, good neighbors, and so on will be paying their taxes to help out the other town with the higher rate of poverty, and more problems. That is what is generally happening with most welfare payments - You take from people and areas that are doing well, and give them to areas that aren't. More often than, not, the bad areas do not improve. You see this with the wealthier blue states and the poorer red states in the US - New Yorkers are paying federal taxes to pay for the poor person in Mississippi and so on.

 

Point is, which Huckabee brought out was, costs are lower when social problems are lower.  You don't make problems go away merely by cutting funding, is my take on that point.

Costs are indeed lower when social problems are lower. But adding funding doesn't make the problem go away, either. A good example would be Detroit's public school system. Its one of the most expensive in the nation, spending over $13,000 per student. The graduation rate is below 40%. They clamor for more money being the cure-all, despite the fact that its clearly not the problem.

Additionally, due to the history of America and its slow adoption of the social welfare state, we've also been the leader in charitable giving as far back as I know. We've generally supplemented increased welfare taxes with charitable giving being twice as high as anywhere else in the world.

The real challenge is deciding if the social spending is incentivizing the poor behavior (e.g. welfare queens), or is actually being used to solve the problem. If its not, then the costs really aren't useful.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Salnax said:
The poor have to be the ones to blame. If we blamed somebody else, that would be Socialist. And you know who was a Socialist. Hitler.


I think that was the fastest application of Godwin's Law that I've ever seen. Kudos.



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richardhutnik said:

* If somehow, unemployment and welfare went away, everyone would start working jobs.  Really?  You know there are jobs everywhere?  And what kind of jobs?  There are homeless people, living on the streets, who actually do work jobs.  Again, what kind of jobs are available?  Is it some sort of great thing that a person can't even make enough money to afford shelter?


I'm not going to bother with the rest of the post, as the rest of the post makes the basic assumption that welfare is a good thing, and that people just don't understand the details.

I'm just going to say this: in a free market there will always be enough jobs to meet the number of people looking for work. In a free market the unemployment rate would be zero, or close to it, almost 90% of the time. There would be brief periods when an industry/large company suddenly dies where a huge number of jobs are suddenly lost, but the markets would adapt within a relatively brief period to find employment.

There is always a job that needs doing. The problem is that the Government gets in the way and makes it more costly to do that job, and it doesn't get done.



SamuelRSmith said:
richardhutnik said:

* If somehow, unemployment and welfare went away, everyone would start working jobs.  Really?  You know there are jobs everywhere?  And what kind of jobs?  There are homeless people, living on the streets, who actually do work jobs.  Again, what kind of jobs are available?  Is it some sort of great thing that a person can't even make enough money to afford shelter?


I'm not going to bother with the rest of the post, as the rest of the post makes the basic assumption that welfare is a good thing, and that people just don't understand the details.

I'm just going to say this: in a free market there will always be enough jobs to meet the number of people looking for work. In a free market the unemployment rate would be zero, or close to it, almost 90% of the time. There would be brief periods when an industry/large company suddenly dies where a huge number of jobs are suddenly lost, but the markets would adapt within a relatively brief period to find employment.

There is always a job that needs doing. The problem is that the Government gets in the way and makes it more costly to do that job, and it doesn't get done.

Again, the assumption of free labor mobility is about as fanciful as the Tooth Fairy. In a free market, just as many people would be screwed over by structural problems, such as the failures of certain whole industries or certain positions becoming obsolete.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

Again, the assumption of free labor mobility is about as fanciful as the Tooth Fairy. In a free market, just as many people would be screwed over by structural problems, such as the failures of certain whole industries or certain positions becoming obsolete.

Prove it. Prove that "free labor mobility is about as fanciful as the Tooth Fairy".



SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:

Again, the assumption of free labor mobility is about as fanciful as the Tooth Fairy. In a free market, just as many people would be screwed over by structural problems, such as the failures of certain whole industries or certain positions becoming obsolete.

Prove it. Prove that "free labor mobility is about as fanciful as the Tooth Fairy".

Let's take the development of the tech industry in the USA. Used to be that there were 2 major sectors: Silicon Valley and the Route 128 Sector near Boston. For various reasons not particularly relating to the viability of the tech sector as a whole, the Route 128 companies were outcompeted and failed. Now, if you live in Boston and you find yourself unemployed with the only other growing part of your sector on the other end of the damn country. If you've got a family, and are living in an era before the internet made this thing a little easier, if all you're good for is the tech sector and the industry is growing on the other side of the country and you have outstanding debts over here, how do you get there? What of the collapse of skilled manufacturing in America? The rust belt where companies disappeared and nothing came in to replace them, leaving behind workers who had a decent living behind them, but weren't really good for anything else and anything related moved quite far away.

Now, i suppose the answer to this is "if you kick minimum wages out, the market will accomodate excess labor," which could be true, but for the simple purpose that hiring individuals takes time, capital investment, and the capital to hire might not be there if you have a ton of unemployed people in the first place (lowering demand and all). Market reaction time and the fact that jobs don't just happen to appear where you live means that more people would remain destitute longer under optimal free-market conditions, moreso than your scenario suggests.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

Let's take the development of the tech industry in the USA. Used to be that there were 2 major sectors: Silicon Valley and the Route 128 Sector near Boston. For various reasons not particularly relating to the viability of the tech sector as a whole, the Route 128 companies were outcompeted and failed. Now, if you live in Boston and you find yourself unemployed with the only other growing part of your sector on the other end of the damn country. If you've got a family, and are living in an era before the internet made this thing a little easier, if all you're good for is the tech sector and the industry is growing on the other side of the country and you have outstanding debts over here, how do you get there? What of the collapse of skilled manufacturing in America? The rust belt where companies disappeared and nothing came in to replace them, leaving behind workers who had a decent living behind them, but weren't really good for anything else and anything related moved quite far away.

Now, i suppose the answer to this is "if you kick minimum wages out, the market will accomodate excess labor," which could be true, but for the simple purpose that hiring individuals takes time, capital investment, and the capital to hire might not be there if you have a ton of unemployed people in the first place (lowering demand and all). Market reaction time and the fact that jobs don't just happen to appear where you live means that more people would remain destitute longer under optimal free-market conditions, moreso than your scenario suggests.

Very first point: in a free market society, there would be less "free capital" (read: printed money, centrall planned interest rates( which would result in fewer mal-investments, and greatly reduce the number of companies/induestries that burst up and then suddenly collapse. It will still happen, but with far less frequency. What would be far more likely is that Route 128 would be slowly outcompeted, and the industry would shrink over time. Thus, available labour would tend to be more of a trickle, then a surge.

HOWEVER, let's take the extremely rare case that such a thing does happen in a free market society. What would happen with labour?

Well, first of all, the demand for tech-related jobs won't disappear immediately. Plenty of firms/people need assistance with tech, setting up systems, maintenance, etc. Some of the labour would be absorbed there. Some of the companies involved directly in Route 128 would survive, even if in a much reduced version of before, some labour would never lose their job.

Some of the companies in California would cherry-pick the very best talent and move them over (they do this already, and not just across States, tech companies in Silicon Valley will pay all the extortionate costs they have to just to import labourers from Europe). This will absorb a very small amount of labour.

But what about the other 70-odd% of labour? In a free market society, there would be hundreds of jobs that still need doing. I mean, I know my family would look to have a cook, gardener, driver, cleaner, but cannot currently afford them because labour is being pulled away in a million other directions. McDonald's always needs new cleaners, and I'm sure there are MANY jobs that Boston needs done but currently cannot. Hell, if it wasn't for all the interferences with licensing, fuel taxes, etc., somebody who just became unemployed could whack a "taxi" sign on the side of their car, and start driving around. Everybody benefits from this.

These are not fantastic jobs, but they would not be permenant, just long enough to keep people by until they retrain, or the demand for their current skills increase. And, even so, like I said, this would only happen extremely rarely, as sudden collapses just would not happen. The only industry where such a risk would be that great, in a free market society, would be the banking sector... and that's something that people training to enter the market would be aware of, such that there would be a lower supply, and thus greater wages, to accomodate the risk.