So, me and Mr. Khan almost got sidetracked in another thread, so I thought I'd create a thread for dicussion of your best/worst Presidents. Don't just list names, try to give brief reasons as to why, and be prepared to (potentially) stand up for your claims.

There's no limit on how many Presidents you list, you can just put your fav/least fav, or you could list them 1-43 in your personal order. Do whatever.

Best:

1 - Harding: he went into the RNC Convention with fewer than 70 delegates, and came out with the nomination. He then went on to smash the general election, and took over the country just as it was falling into a massive economic downturn. The recession of 1921 had an initial downturn greater than that of the Great Depression, but through his policies of cutting Government spending and taxes, the country was out, and growing again, within the year.

2 - Cleveland: Although technically a Democrat, and a believer in a superior Executive branch, Cleveland was a strict Constitutionalist. If there was a Bill that passed Congress that didn't strictly adhere to the Constitution, he vetoed it.

3 - Jefferson: the thing about Jefferson was that he wasn't the President that he, himself, envisioned. However, he does quite well in my books thanks to his work on nullification, his contributions to the Natural-Law arguments in the drawing up of the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence. Unfortunately, during his Presidency he did engage in the Louisiana purchase, which is considered to be deeply unconstitutional. Although in his writings and talks his was against slavery, and favoured gradual emancipation, he offered little legislation in regards to this (though, many argue that he was constrained by the slave-state-controlled Congress).

4 - Washington: Washingston is up here because of the huge personal restraint he showed, overseeing the writing of the Constitution, and respecting limits on his powers that were not codified at the time... I honestly believe that there are few people who would do this. The reason why he's not at the top is because of his inclusion of Alexander Hamilton in his cabinet, which lead to policy decisions that set a bad precedent for future Presidents.

Worst:

1 - FDR: soviet-style planning of agriculture, introduction of soviet-style rationing system, looking up citizens for the "crime" for being of Japanese decent, laws controlling gold ownership, public-works programs that led to the ideas of Keynes being locked into the political mindset until even today, questionable actions in regard to dealing with Japan before Pearl Harbour.

2 - Lincoln: how many US citizens died under this President? Illegal taxes. Changed the relationship between the people and the Federal Government for the worst, changed the entire political structure of the USA (massive reduction in states rights). During the rebuilding of the South, the place was like a dictatorship. He was also a massive inspiration for the tyrannical policies of today.

3 - Wilson: Prohibition. Federal Reserve.

4 - Johnson: Welfare programs leading to many of today's economic woes (what is it, $150tn unfunded liabilities?)

5 - Obama/Bush II: these take the same spot because they are the same guy. If they actually were the same guy, they'd probably come up as 3rd worst. Iraq, Afghanistan, Patriot Act, TSA, warrantless wiretapping, signing statements, Tresspass, NDAA12/13, the list goes on and on.

Honourable mention: Nixon, Truman, Adams I.

I'm not familiar enough with American history to try, but good analysis and Obama/Bush really are very close ideologically, shame the American voters can't see that.

On "technically a democrat" you have to note that the Democrats stood for the stuff that Cleveland stood for at the time. He was constitutionalist in the sense that he was anti-industry, whereas the Republicans were pro-tariff and pro-subsidy. He built his popularity on the large resentment for industrialization that was in full swing in America at the time.

Best:

1 - Johnson: Stood up to the racists and worked to weed out the KKK fairly aggressively. Arguably politically motivated more than personally (given that he obstructed such efforts as Senate leader in the '50s). Great Society, etc.

2- FDR: essentially laid the foundation for modern America in terms of policy, military, diplomacy, he stood up for the poor and provided real leadership out of the depression and through the second world war.

3- Lincoln: Held the nation together against the instance of states' rights run amok that was the Confederacy.

4- Theodore Roosevelt: certain racist tendencies, though not overt support for the KKK (which hadn't been revived yet). However, he helped lead the cause of progressivism in the early 20th century for pushing America into modernity.

5- Andrew Jackson: Stood up to the lunacy of nullification in his day. The Trail of Tears is a black mark against him, but he took no prisoners and helped sharpen the focus of the Federal Government.

Worst:

1- James Buchanan: Largely his fault the civil war was allowed to happen.

2- Warren Harding: Fairly incompetent (largely the reason why he died.) Although his supply-side fixes temporarily abated the economy, he ignored underlying issues that tore into the 20s.

3- Ronald Reagan: Set this country back 30 years. The poisonous political ideas he helped champion are what holds this country back today, the fruits of his labor.

4- Andrew Johnson: Accidental president who was unfairly hounded by the Republican congress at the time, but he was ill-suited for his time. Real post-civil-war leadership was needed.

5- John Q. Adams: Cheated his way into the presidency and was made largely ineffectual because of it.

Haha, Khan, I love how the reasons why I state the Presidents are worst, are the reasons why you state they're best, and vice versa.

EDIT: Just like to say that I'm aware that the Democrats were a very different party back in the day, just made my point to pre-empt anybody who would have made it for me.

Does that mean, no matter what I say, you'll carry on believing that there's a different between Bush and Obama? Because there isn't.

An interesting link for this topic -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

I find it interesting that presidents that are regarded by historians as amongst the very worst top both your lists.

#1 - Grover Cleveland. Love his story. Only presidential biography I've bothered reading.

#2 - Thomas Jefferson. Good archetype for presidents to follow throughout history. Often cited by many presidents, but rarely imitated.

#3 - Warren G. Harding. For many of the same reasons Samuel named. Slashed and hacked away at Wilson's massive increase in government spending.

#4. Calvin Cooledge. Similar situation as Harding, especially since he was his successor. Continued small government promotion through the mid 20s and helped spur the Roaring Twenties.

#5. George Washington. Great initial president for America. Imperfect, yes, but had the country's best interests at heart. Oversaw implementation of the Constitution, bill of rights. Does get a big deduction for the Whisky Rebellion, though.

Other Good Mentions:

- JFK
- Bill Clinton (largely due to the '96-99 congress)


Worst:

#1. FDR. Samuel goes over the major reasons. Confiscated gold from American citizens, reckless spender, jailed hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans because he believed they were collaborators. Grew government to a size that was unprecedented. Loved by leftists, despite the fact that few of his policies really benefited the country.

#2. Woodrow Wilson. He was an FDR-lite. Got us into WW1, spent like no other before him. Created the federal reserve. Prohibition. Pretty racist, too, AFAIK.

#3. LBJ. Created the 'great society', which has ruined our country financially. Took the social safety net and turned it into a pension system that is unsustainable, resulting in trillions of dollars being taken out of the economy and put into government debt. Vietnam.

#4. Abraham Lincon. Suspension of Habeus Corpus. Got us into the Civil War thanks to Fort Sumter. Repaid war veterans by giving them land (Homestead Act) resulting in kicking or killing many, many Indians.

#5. Herbert Hoover. He was FDR's archetype. Raised taxes, passed Smoot-Hawley against the advice of economists. I largely fault him for exacerbating the Great Depression. Very nice guy on a personal level, but atrocious president.

Other bad ones:

- Andrew Jackson. Trail of Tears. Spoils System. Attempted destruction of Electoral College.
- Teddy Roosevelt. Massive expansion of federal and state governments (largest increase in history, or near it).
- Nixon. Removal of gold standard. EPA. Watergate. Price fixing.
- Jimmy Carter. Creation of the CRA. Stagflation. Massive increase in size of government - larger than any post-WW2 president in regards to raw growth during presidency.
- Bush/Obama. See Samuel R. Smith..

Not fully true about Grover Cleveland. Read up on Grover's nomination and fighting with the Tammany Hall Democrats of New York. He wasn't in-line with a lot of the Dems at the time.

Historians usually attribute anything that happens during a president's tenure as a benefit or bane for them. There is almost no context to their rankings in regards of creating policies that have good or bad effects on the country over a significant period of time.

For example, Hoover is ranked very low for starting the depression, while FDR ranks very high for 'ending' it. Although the reality is that FDR didn't fix it, Bretton Woods did.

If you take a real objective view of policies created by presidents and the long-term view of our country, the list would be much different. Most historians have a very narrow view of presidents.. Read a few biographies. They are inundated with a chosen few.

I really don't know who i would consider the best presidents. I've been on the internet long enough to know they all did pretty bad stuff. So I'm tempted to look at the lesser of two evils. With that knowledge

Best- Harrison. He didn't do anything to anyone

Worst- Obama, and Jackson. Any president who actively tries to snuff out one of his own civilians is despicable