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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

But if you agree that God can flawlessly predict which paths (out of the infinite possibilities) we will take throughout our lives, then that means that some are born to go to hell. God knows that person X will make some choices, resulting in him going to hell, yet He won't interfere.

Is it really fair then? A life started by God goes straight to hell because of the way God has created it.

First of all. I dont think humans have limitless possibilities just becuase Humans dont live forever in a three dimentional world and there will be a time where humans will cease to exist. However this tangle of web is infinitley complicated. but one can argue that God can interefere so it could be limitless? 

Anyway, back to the point lol. 

MAKE some choises. So this person X has given the ablity of free will. His mind ,which is capable of seperating right and wrong, has made descisions to go to hell. God has given US the chance whether we should do this or not. Potentially we control our fate as we go. Each turn will result in a change of fate (going to heaven) (Going to hell). 

It was OUR free willed choice to do whatever we want to do. It was Person X's free willed choice that has set him the path to hell. This "photon" was never born in to this yet he chose his own path at the end (including the potentially limitless variables).

Take this in to account.

We cannot be born in to going in to hell. Neither born in to going in to heaven itself. But as the intial circumstances your mother has bought you in to the world. has set a limited but potentially limitless amount of "end paths".

Person X brought in to the world by his/her mother. Initial circumstances: Born in to a christian home.

More Chance to going to heaven than hell

Heaven 79%

Hell 21%

Person Y brought in to the world by his/her mother. Initial circumstances: Born in to a non-christian home.

Heaven 20% 

Hell 80%

(The initial circumstances was the consequence of the free willed descision made by our ancestors)

_______

 

See what I mean? Each has a chance (However they may not be as equal). And its up to you what ever you want to do. Your not born in to going in to hell or heaven. hats why free will exists at the first place.  


It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then?

And as for your "born in a Christian/non-Christian family"-examples, here is an interesting question for you to ponder: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=142714&page=



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Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:

First of all. I dont think humans have limitless possibilities just becuase Humans dont live forever in a three dimentional world and there will be a time where humans will cease to exist. However this tangle of web is infinitley complicated. but one can argue that God can interefere so it could be limitless? 

Anyway, back to the point lol. 

MAKE some choises. So this person X has given the ablity of free will. His mind ,which is capable of seperating right and wrong, has made descisions to go to hell. God has given US the chance whether we should do this or not. Potentially we control our fate as we go. Each turn will result in a change of fate (going to heaven) (Going to hell). 

It was OUR free willed choice to do whatever we want to do. It was Person X's free willed choice that has set him the path to hell. This "photon" was never born in to this yet he chose his own path at the end (including the potentially limitless variables).

Take this in to account.

We cannot be born in to going in to hell. Neither born in to going in to heaven itself. But as the intial circumstances your mother has bought you in to the world. has set a limited but potentially limitless amount of "end paths".

Person X brought in to the world by his/her mother. Initial circumstances: Born in to a christian home.

More Chance to going to heaven than hell

Heaven 79%

Hell 21%

Person Y brought in to the world by his/her mother. Initial circumstances: Born in to a non-christian home.

Heaven 20% 

Hell 80%

(The initial circumstances was the consequence of the free willed descision made by our ancestors)

_______

 

See what I mean? Each has a chance (However they may not be as equal). And its up to you what ever you want to do. Your not born in to going in to hell or heaven. hats why free will exists at the first place.  


It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then?

And as for your "born in a Christian/non-Christian family"-examples, here is an interesting question for you to ponder: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=142714&page=

" It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then? "

Why wouldn't a fertile woman not given the right to bring a human unto our world?



Yay!!!

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then?

And as for your "born in a Christian/non-Christian family"-examples, here is an interesting question for you to ponder: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=142714&page=

" It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then? "

Why wouldn't a fertile woman not given the right to bring a human unto our world?

Because she is a crack addict who will most probably bring up all of her children in misery, making them follow her footsteps. She is also very likely to give birth to physically damaged children as they are affected by the drugs that she has been taking.

As for comparison with the God example: She is not aware of her child's future, unlike God. If she knew that it would live a horrible life and die a slow and painful death, why give birth to it in the first place?



Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then?

And as for your "born in a Christian/non-Christian family"-examples, here is an interesting question for you to ponder: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=142714&page=

" It still doesn't explain the question that I edited in earlier though: Why would God create a human being if He knew that it would choose to go to hell during its lifetime? Isn't God the responsable one then? "

Why wouldn't a fertile woman not given the right to bring a human unto our world?

Because she is a crack addict who will most probably bring up all of her children in misery, making them follow her footsteps. She is also very likely to give birth to physically damaged children as they are affected by the drugs that she has been taking.

As for comparison with the God example: She is not aware of her child's future, unlike God. If she knew that it would live a horrible life and die a slow and painful death, why give birth to it in the first place?


And.. she was a crack addict becuase of the consequences of the free willed descisions she has made.

A body of a woman has the ability to reproduce and carry the womb. This shoulnt be taken from her no matter the circumstances as it created by God to function just like that. Wasnt taken away from other women that has existed for tens of thousands of years as well. 

____

This mother has free will. She can choose to make an abortion or let the kid live a hard life in to the world. Why does the kid have a hard life? Its becuase of the initial circumstances.NOT MADE BY THE KID but by the mother's ill-descisions. 

THUS GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. But it is us humans. 

Think about it like this. The suffering of the kid is the fallout of the mothers bad free willed descisions. 



Yay!!!

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Because she is a crack addict who will most probably bring up all of her children in misery, making them follow her footsteps. She is also very likely to give birth to physically damaged children as they are affected by the drugs that she has been taking.

As for comparison with the God example: She is not aware of her child's future, unlike God. If she knew that it would live a horrible life and die a slow and painful death, why give birth to it in the first place?


And.. she was a crack addict becuase of the consequences of the free willed descisions she has made.

A body of a woman has the ability to reproduce and carry the womb. This shoulnt be taken from her no matter the circumstances as it created by God to function just like that. Wasnt taken away from other women that has existed for tens of thousands of years as well. 

____

This mother has free will. She can choose to make an abortion or let the kid live a hard life in to the world. Why does the kid have a hard life? Its becuase of the initial circumstances.NOT MADE BY THE KID but by the mother's ill-descisions. 

THUS GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. But it is us humans. 

Think about it like this. The suffering of the kid is the fallout of the mothers bad free willed descisions. 

Bolded: So, a crack addict who also drinks a lot should be allowed to raise kids? Really? I would feel very sorry for those kids then.

Underlined: God saw it happen though, and he never did anything to stop it. He let the kid grow up in terrible conditions despite knowing how the mother would choose to raise it.

God is responsible for that kid's misery, no matter how you twist it.



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Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 on 13 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Because she is a crack addict who will most probably bring up all of her children in misery, making them follow her footsteps. She is also very likely to give birth to physically damaged children as they are affected by the drugs that she has been taking.

As for comparison with the God example: She is not aware of her child's future, unlike God. If she knew that it would live a horrible life and die a slow and painful death, why give birth to it in the first place?


And.. she was a crack addict becuase of the consequences of the free willed descisions she has made.

A body of a woman has the ability to reproduce and carry the womb. This shoulnt be taken from her no matter the circumstances as it created by God to function just like that. Wasnt taken away from other women that has existed for tens of thousands of years as well. 

____

This mother has free will. She can choose to make an abortion or let the kid live a hard life in to the world. Why does the kid have a hard life? Its becuase of the initial circumstances.NOT MADE BY THE KID but by the mother's ill-descisions. 

THUS GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. But it is us humans. 

Think about it like this. The suffering of the kid is the fallout of the mothers bad free willed descisions. 

Bolded: So, a crack addict who also drinks a lot should be allowed to raise kids? Really? I would feel very sorry for those kids then.

Underlined: God saw it happen though, and he never did anything to stop it. He let the kid grow up in terrible conditions despite knowing how the mother would choose to raise it.

God is responsible for that kid's misery, no matter how you twist it.


wait... so you mean God should interferre on everything that we do? So what? You expect us to live in a utopia where everyone is perfectly healthy, everyone is a good huy, good people come first?

You dont understand that the bible states that Humans once lived in an ever perfect in earth(which defines "Utopia"). It s called "Eden". God gave us the FREE WILL even back then. But who chose to eat that apple? Not God? Not the devil? (Influenced but DID NOT make the descision). But the humans. 



Yay!!!

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Bolded: So, a crack addict who also drinks a lot should be allowed to raise kids? Really? I would feel very sorry for those kids then.

Underlined: God saw it happen though, and he never did anything to stop it. He let the kid grow up in terrible conditions despite knowing how the mother would choose to raise it.

God is responsible for that kid's misery, no matter how you twist it.


wait... so you mean God should interferre on everything that we do? So what? You expect us to live in a utopia where everyone is perfectly healthy, everyone is a good huy, good people come first?

You dont understand that the bible states that Humans once lived in an ever perfect in earth(which defines "Utopia"). It s called "Eden". God gave us the FREE WILL even back then. But who chose to eat that apple? Not God? Not the devil? (Influenced but DID NOT make the descision). But the humans. 

Still, God created the humans and the free will. He could predict how we would use it before giving it to us, thus He sent us to a world of pain on purpose.

 

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Our fate is in God's hands.

Indeed.



TheProphet on 13 May 2012

Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 13 May 2012
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.


You are actually wrong about the bolded. That would be like saying "God can create a rock that is so heavy that He cannot lift it" (as mentioned earlier in this thread).

And backing up your argument with a story (which is even considered an actual story rather than history by many believers) does not really support your point.



Rath on 13 May 2012
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.

Even if there was evidence that a god existed that would not mean it was the Abrahamic god. As the free will against omniscience contradiction shows that the Abrahamic god as literally described makes no sense that would imply that any creator god was not the Abrahamic god.

As for your point "He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He." What you're describing is the god paradox - is it possible for a god to limit itself? If god can limit his ability to see the future then he loses his omnipotence when he does so, if god cannot limit his ability to see the future then he is in not omnipotent in the first place. As such omnipotence is not logically consistent.