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Forums - General Discussion - Can we assure someone a place in Heaven?

 

Do you think that there is a God?

Yes 37 34.91%
 
No 40 37.74%
 
It's likely 6 5.66%
 
It's not likely 13 12.26%
 
Not after what you just wrote! 1 0.94%
 
See results 9 8.49%
 
Total:106

You are making the assumption that heaven and hell are not just two possible destinations, but the only two possible destinations for a soul once its body passes away.

In the tradition of the Gospel of John: John 3:13 - No one has ascended to heaven but he who came out of heaven; and he is the logos, who is in heaven.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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Jumpin said:
You are making the assumption that heaven and hell are not just two possible destinations, but the only two possible destinations for a soul once its body passes away.

In the tradition of the Gospel of John: John 3:13 - No one has ascended to heaven but he who came out of heaven; and he is the logos, who is in heaven.


Well, I did generalize a lot, but heaven and hell being the only two possible post-life destinations is arguably the most common belief most Jews and Christians have.

Still, the more opinions and different views being shared, the better :)



Heh, I think you'll find that what most Jews and Christians believe in is not actually supported by Judaism or Christianity =)

I think one of the biggest issues with the Christian religion at least, is that people don't recognize the multiple traditions covered in the canon. So they follow what other thinkers have done in the past in attempts to reconcile all of these traditions, and create an almost entirely new idea which is not supported by any of the traditions. They take the 4 Gospels and instead interpret an entirely new Gospel which doesn't agree with the other 4.

There were many different traditions of Christianity that didn't make it into the canon either; and in order to rely only on the canon is to rely on Bishops who lives some 300 years after the supposed dates of the events. Some Christians even used their religious faith to persecute others and justify lifestyles steeped in greed when all 4 Gospel traditions are anti-violence, written for the persecuted, and also very anti-greed and pro-generosity.

Now I have gone too far off topic and have used up my lunch hour =P

Point being, there's a very good amount in Christianity that is misunderstood by most, including many Christians.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

It's because of weak theology as in the OP that most smart people become atheistic nowadays. Seriously, if it's 'The Truth' then it should at least make sense.



Jumpin said:
Heh, I think you'll find that what most Jews and Christians believe in is not actually supported by Judaism or Christianity =)

I think one of the biggest issues with the Christian religion at least, is that people don't recognize the multiple traditions covered in the canon. So they follow what other thinkers have done in the past in attempts to reconcile all of these traditions, and create an almost entirely new idea which is not supported by any of the traditions. They take the 4 Gospels and instead interpret an entirely new Gospel which doesn't agree with the other 4.

There were many different traditions of Christianity that didn't make it into the canon either; and in order to rely only on the canon is to rely on Bishops who lives some 300 years after the supposed dates of the events. Some Christians even used their religious faith to persecute others and justify lifestyles steeped in greed when all 4 Gospel traditions are anti-violence, written for the persecuted, and also very anti-greed and pro-generosity.

Now I have gone too far off topic and have used up my lunch hour =P

Point being, there's a very good amount in Christianity that is misunderstood by most, including many Christians.

No, this is very much on topic. 

You make good points. Some crucial espects of Christianity that were thrown out were:

- The transmigration of the soul, i.e. reincarnation

- vegetarianism

- well, there's actually a lot more but let's not go too far...

Another aspect that is purposefully ignored is that Jesus never claimed to be the only salvation for all men for all time to come. In the overly quoted ''I am the way...'' speech, the actual word used is 'erketai' - meaning extreme local (time and space) case. This has transformed the spiritual teachings of Jesus (which are very simple by any standard) into an exclusive sect where the lifestyle of the members hardly resemble the teachings of Jesus at all.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jumpin said:
You are making the assumption that heaven and hell are not just two possible destinations, but the only two possible destinations for a soul once its body passes away.

In the tradition of the Gospel of John: John 3:13 - No one has ascended to heaven but he who came out of heaven; and he is the logos, who is in heaven.


Well, I did generalize a lot, but heaven and hell being the only two possible post-life destinations is arguably the most common theory most Jews and Christians believes in.

The more opinions and different views being shared, the better :)

Theory?  Nonono, you do not understand what that word means.  A theory is an idea that has substantial but not conclusive evidence to back it up.  No evidence, not a theory.  Belief?  sure.  Philosophy?  I'll take that too, but theory?  nope. Theory would imply some actual thought was put into it rather than just whimsical wellwishing. 



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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Let's jump right to it with a concrete example:

A human being is put in absolute quarantine the very second it is born. During its entire lifespan it will have no interference with anyone or anything apart from its supplied provision. It will never be able to commit a sin apart from its ability to worship itself or to create bonds with deities that are created by him-/herself (which is highly unlikely given its isolation). On the other hand though, it will never be able to commit any "good" actions either as there is no way it could ever care for, or love anyone but itself.

 

And now the question to ponder: Would this human being go to heaven, as God feel sorry for it and is aware that there was no way it could do anything about its situation, or would it go straight to hell since it completely lack faith in God and never worshipped him in any sort of way? As I see it:

- If it ends up in heaven, we have just found a way of assuring someone a place next to God once they die.

- If it ends up in hell (due to a lack of faith and/or selfless actions), God evidently has no mercy for the unfortunate.

 

Because those two are the only options, right?

 

(I'm obviously not religious myself, but those who are should find this question interesting to discuss.)

ooooooo my favorite topic! I received my B.S in Pastoral Ministry, not to become a pastor, but concentrating in the Integration of Psychology and Theology. Anyhow, those two statements in bold is pretty much impossible :( I will keep this a bit short and sweet.

1. Man fell into a condition of sin and misery. The sinfulness of that fallen condition is twofold. First, in what is commonly called original sin, there is the guilt of Adam's first sin with its lack of original righteousness and the corruption of his whole nature. Second, are all the specific acts of disobedience that come from original sin, acts such as h***s***** for example. As for the misery of man's fallen condition: By their fall all mankind lost fellowship with God and brought his anger and curse on themselves. They are therefore subject to all the miseries of this life, to death itself, and to the pains of hell forever.

2. Christians can certainly be unlike Christ. Since the fall no ordinary man can perfectly keep the commandments of God in this life but breaks them every day in thought, word and action. But Christians repent. Repentance into life is a saving grace, by which a sinner, being truly aware of his sinfulness, understands the mercy of God in Christ, grieves for and hates his sins, and turns from them to God, fully intending and striving for a new obedience.

3. Also, while God is incomprehensible in that we cannot understand him fully it does not follow that we cannot understand him adequately or else why would he have specially revealed himself through the Scriptures?

 

If someone asked me, how do you know that there is a God, prove it? Well the only way I can answer that is with:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." -Ephesians 2:8

 

 





Kif, we have a conundrum...



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Seriously, fuck that religous bullshit.



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Runa216 said:

Theory?  Nonono, you do not understand what that word means.  A theory is an idea that has substantial but not conclusive evidence to back it up.  No evidence, not a theory.  Belief?  sure.  Philosophy?  I'll take that too, but theory?  nope. Theory would imply some actual thought was put into it rather than just whimsical wellwishing. 


Yeah, my bad. I've fixed the post now.