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Forums - Politics Discussion - Incomes up for upper class and rich, down for middle class...

SamuelRSmith on 05 March 2012
richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Well, I haven't read the article (nor am I going to), but yeah, the middle and bottom classes have been hurting these past few years. Best way to deal with it is to tackle inflation, and to stop handing over trillions of dollars to Wall Street.

As for the tax issue I see propping up above. Let's keep the Bush and payroll tax cuts. Pay for it by cutting back on foreign entanglements.

And you still sit on a debt time bomb, that isn't resolved.  America will be looking at having to get off the world stage the way it had, get its house and order, and is likely facing austerity AND increased taxes to pay off the debt it has.  Taxes will have to go up, but it is a matter on whom.  One can say, "Wow, nearly 50% don't pay income taxes, so we need to have some skin in the game for everyone".  Well, not sure how you get that to fly and then argue that taxes on the upper end needs to remain where it is, or be lower.

There is a reality here, and it is that taxes are just one part of people's lives.  One can't say the net sum of everything is taxes rates.  Economically, there needs to be the generation of real goods and services in need, that generate sufficient income for people, so they can buy more.  One can argue to do more manufacturing, but manufacturing is declining globally, as a portion of the population employed, just as it happened with agriculture. 

What is needed is real answers, or you are looking at problems.  It is only class warfare, if there is a class being hammered and another class getting away with a lot more.  Idea is to look at what can be done that is meaningful, and stop with this BS about tax rates.  Simplify the tax code, figure out what priorities are, and let the country sort it out on its own.  And try to prevent those who can least afford it, to take the brunt of it.  Probably it would make sense also to have capital gains be at the same rate as other sources of income.

And the short, if people aren't getting ahead, but see an elite class doing better and better, do expect people to not be happy with the system that is producing it.


I don't really understand your point (I often don't).

The elite class are doing better and better because of Government intervention. When the Federal Reserve prints up $7.7 trillion dollars and gives it to Wall Street, the elite get richer, and everybody else's dollar devaluates. Not only this, but Government intervention puts in so many new laws that favour the large corporations, it chokes small business owners and reduces the income mobility of the country.

You want 0% unemployment? That's pretty easy: eliminate all taxes relating to employment, and all wage laws. Sure, there will be millions of people earning only a couple of dollars an hour... but that's better than nothing, right? It would be particularly nice if the dollars they earned would actually be worth something, too (which will never happen with the current system of Government intervention).

But, before we even think about 0% unemployment, we need to think about the debt problem. That's pretty easy to solve. End all foreign wars, and cut the defence budget by about 15%, eliminate corporate subsidies,  eliminate foreign aid, sell federal lands (The Feds own something like 90% of Nevada), let the states deal with welfare, healthcare and education.

Ending the war on drugs (and releasing all non-violent prisoners), ending the surveillance state, privatizing the FAA and TSA, privatizing some of the road network, all oughtta save some pennies, too.

And how any one of those policies lead to austerity, or tax increases, I'd LOVE to know.



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richardhutnik on 05 March 2012
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Well, I haven't read the article (nor am I going to), but yeah, the middle and bottom classes have been hurting these past few years. Best way to deal with it is to tackle inflation, and to stop handing over trillions of dollars to Wall Street.

As for the tax issue I see propping up above. Let's keep the Bush and payroll tax cuts. Pay for it by cutting back on foreign entanglements.

And you still sit on a debt time bomb, that isn't resolved.  America will be looking at having to get off the world stage the way it had, get its house and order, and is likely facing austerity AND increased taxes to pay off the debt it has.  Taxes will have to go up, but it is a matter on whom.  One can say, "Wow, nearly 50% don't pay income taxes, so we need to have some skin in the game for everyone".  Well, not sure how you get that to fly and then argue that taxes on the upper end needs to remain where it is, or be lower.

There is a reality here, and it is that taxes are just one part of people's lives.  One can't say the net sum of everything is taxes rates.  Economically, there needs to be the generation of real goods and services in need, that generate sufficient income for people, so they can buy more.  One can argue to do more manufacturing, but manufacturing is declining globally, as a portion of the population employed, just as it happened with agriculture. 

What is needed is real answers, or you are looking at problems.  It is only class warfare, if there is a class being hammered and another class getting away with a lot more.  Idea is to look at what can be done that is meaningful, and stop with this BS about tax rates.  Simplify the tax code, figure out what priorities are, and let the country sort it out on its own.  And try to prevent those who can least afford it, to take the brunt of it.  Probably it would make sense also to have capital gains be at the same rate as other sources of income.

And the short, if people aren't getting ahead, but see an elite class doing better and better, do expect people to not be happy with the system that is producing it.


Again... your ignoring the fact that one class isn't getting hammered.  Your own article said Middle Class incomes rose.  Just not as high as rich incomes... and that's ignoring the fact that they were studying it as a percent and not actually seeing if many middle class ended up moving into the upper class. 

Which again... seeing the data distribution (Higher wages, but thresholds dropping to join said groups.)  Makes such a case EXTREMELY prbabale.


In otherwords, your misquoting an article that is misquoting a study.

The article said this:

But the middle class saw a drop of 0.7% in wages.

 

They did see an increase in capital gains, but capital gains is not income, unless you make a living buying or selling assets.



Kasz216 on 06 March 2012
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Well, I haven't read the article (nor am I going to), but yeah, the middle and bottom classes have been hurting these past few years. Best way to deal with it is to tackle inflation, and to stop handing over trillions of dollars to Wall Street.

As for the tax issue I see propping up above. Let's keep the Bush and payroll tax cuts. Pay for it by cutting back on foreign entanglements.

And you still sit on a debt time bomb, that isn't resolved.  America will be looking at having to get off the world stage the way it had, get its house and order, and is likely facing austerity AND increased taxes to pay off the debt it has.  Taxes will have to go up, but it is a matter on whom.  One can say, "Wow, nearly 50% don't pay income taxes, so we need to have some skin in the game for everyone".  Well, not sure how you get that to fly and then argue that taxes on the upper end needs to remain where it is, or be lower.

There is a reality here, and it is that taxes are just one part of people's lives.  One can't say the net sum of everything is taxes rates.  Economically, there needs to be the generation of real goods and services in need, that generate sufficient income for people, so they can buy more.  One can argue to do more manufacturing, but manufacturing is declining globally, as a portion of the population employed, just as it happened with agriculture. 

What is needed is real answers, or you are looking at problems.  It is only class warfare, if there is a class being hammered and another class getting away with a lot more.  Idea is to look at what can be done that is meaningful, and stop with this BS about tax rates.  Simplify the tax code, figure out what priorities are, and let the country sort it out on its own.  And try to prevent those who can least afford it, to take the brunt of it.  Probably it would make sense also to have capital gains be at the same rate as other sources of income.

And the short, if people aren't getting ahead, but see an elite class doing better and better, do expect people to not be happy with the system that is producing it.


Again... your ignoring the fact that one class isn't getting hammered.  Your own article said Middle Class incomes rose.  Just not as high as rich incomes... and that's ignoring the fact that they were studying it as a percent and not actually seeing if many middle class ended up moving into the upper class. 

Which again... seeing the data distribution (Higher wages, but thresholds dropping to join said groups.)  Makes such a case EXTREMELY prbabale.


In otherwords, your misquoting an article that is misquoting a study.

The article said this:

But the middle class saw a drop of 0.7% in wages.

 

They did see an increase in capital gains, but capital gains is not income, unless you make a living buying or selling assets.


Reread your own article.  Paragraph four.

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/income-goes-up-especially-for-the-rich/?hpt=hp_t3

Middle-class Americans? Not so fortunate. Those making between $50K and $100K saw their incomes creep up only 1.5%.

Middle Class wages saw an .7% drop... yet their incomes increased 1.5%.



Kasz216 on 06 March 2012

Really I don't even get where they are getting some of these numbers from either.



mrstickball on 06 March 2012
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
I believe a tax on assets/personal net fortunes would be a much fairer way of taxation than personal income taxes. Too many tax loopholes exist in the current taxation system. Taxable incomes can be reported as being much lower, tax offsets, income splitting with spouse allow people to report much lower taxable incomes.


By taxing wealth, you would litterally destroy the productive class in society in a generation. Taking away peoples' wealth would take away investment(s) into the economy, which would harm capital investment.

There are too many loopholes, certainly. But to solve that, all you need is a flat, no loophole, no deduction tax.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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Mummelmann on 06 March 2012

Its crazy to see the differences in wages globally, I make around 55.000$ working only part-time and my hourly pay isn't really considered very high around here. Then again, the average two-room apartment rent here is about 2600-2700$ a month...



mrstickball on 06 March 2012
Mummelmann said:
Its crazy to see the differences in wages globally, I make around 55.000$ working only part-time and my hourly pay isn't really considered very high around here. Then again, the average two-room apartment rent here is about 2600-2700$ a month...


And comparatively, as a landlord, I charge $450/mo for apartments, which include some utilities like water and trash..



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Rath on 06 March 2012

I don't understand the support for flat taxes in America, it would really screw the poor.



Mummelmann on 06 March 2012
mrstickball said:
Mummelmann said:
Its crazy to see the differences in wages globally, I make around 55.000$ working only part-time and my hourly pay isn't really considered very high around here. Then again, the average two-room apartment rent here is about 2600-2700$ a month...


And comparatively, as a landlord, I charge $450/mo for apartments, which include some utilities like water and trash..


Yeah, my region, Trondheim, is the most expensive in all of Norway and probably among the 50 most costly places in the world even counting places such as Monte Carlo, downtown Tokyo, Manhattan, Dubai and so on. Its gotten real crazy over here but the bubble is about to burst like it has everywhere else. If you want to purchase a home here now, you need a 10% deposit right away (some brokers even require 15% while others have a set sum, 150.000 for instance), meaning you basically need 200-300.000 NOK of your own to even get the loans out... Makes it hard for couples and impossible for single people unless you have rich parents.



sethnintendo on 06 March 2012
Rath said:
I don't understand the support for flat taxes in America, it would really screw the poor.


Well, it would only screw the poor if they weren't compensated for the necessities like food.  Basically, I like it because it is better than the government taking money out of my paycheck automatically and making me wait till the end of the year to get it back.  It would only screw the poor over who can't control their spending.  Don't want to pay tax on anything that isn't a necessity then don't buy it.