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Jesus vs Mohammed?

Jesus 136 39.19%
 
Mohammed 158 45.53%
 
Equal 53 15.27%
 
Total:347
Shinobi-san on 03 March 2012
Andrespetmonkey said:
Cirio said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
My vote goes to any decent human being of today that doesn't live by the moral code of some 1400-2000 year old men.

If you read the Quran or the Bible, you will learn that the "moral code" hasn't changed at all since then. In fact, most people are much worse now compared to those who followed the religions at that time. The only main issue I see is with the rights of homosexuals, which I agree that both religions frown against.

"most people are much worse now compared to those who followed the religions at that time"

Wow. 


@Andrespetmonkey I dont see the problem with people following the teachings of Jesus as a moral code?

I get the feeling people mix up the teachings of jesus (as in what was reported to be taught by jesus according to the bible) with that of the bible itself in full.

Like the issue of homosexuals...Jesus isnt reported to have said anything at all about it. Whether or not you can actually seperate Jesus from the rest of the bible is an interesting topic, after all he was a jew...its not like he purposefully started Christianity.

@Cirio I think in general people live much better lives now than they did in those times, irrespective of religion. Not that i can actually back this statement up, but im sure if i did some researching it would be pretty easy to back it up ;)



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Pyro as Bill on 03 March 2012

There is a well known part of Europe that still has an age of consent of 12 years old.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 03 March 2012
binary solo said:

Mohammad was celebate until he got married to Khadija who was older than him. He remained monogamous until Khadija died. After she died all sorts of disciples and allied tribes offered daughters in marriage. Can you imagine, in a culture where multitudes of wives is an accepted norm, someone of Mohammad's status turning down a marriage offer? the sort of Embarassment that would cause the girl's father. And no doubt, again, due to the culture of the time that loss of face would be blamed on the girl not being good enough so she would have suffered.

Did you know that Islam was the first religion to limit the number of wives a man can have? In Judaism there was no limit on number of wives, and Jesus made no modifications to this aspect of Jewish law. That's why the Mormon's for instance started out allowing polygamy, they only repudiated it when they realised it was out of step with modern thinking and it limited the ability for them to have broader influence. And of course none of those religions established a minimum age for marriage. The first religious book to establish a minimum age for marriage was Baha'i which set the age at 15, for boys and girls. Indeed in many western countries as recently as the 1930s there were no laws about minimum age of marriage.

So marrying a 9 year old girl in the historical and cultural context of the time is a total non-issue.


That entire wall is out of context. The thing is that the christian religion is willing to make compromises and now allows no more than one wife per husband. All islamic followers, on the other hand, must follow each word of the Koran with no exceptions.

Fact is: Millions of people worship a man who'd be considered a pedophile nowadays. That is insane, and you say it's a non-issue.



lordmandeep on 03 March 2012

My belief is that there is some wisdom in old beliefs but we must also look and accept the times we live in.

The times we live, morality is based mostly on a cost benefit analysis.

Most people accepted Homosexuality and Gay Marriage as they realize that in the end it does not hurt them. If it does not hurt you or effect why oppose it. There is no benefit to me and there is no cost to me.

Freedom of religion exists and you can still have marriages in your place of worship that excludes such marriages.

That is my opinion on it. If people want to be gay and marry, let them be.

 

"I get the feeling people mix up the teachings of jesus (as in what was reported to be taught by jesus according to the bible) with that of the bible itself in full."

 

Perfectly explains why Jesus is way more respected then the Christain religion...



Cirio on 03 March 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Cirio said:
lordmandeep said:

Many people find the child marriage "questionable" because they don't know anything about it and it's intentions. This marriage was actually more benefitial for Aisha because she went from a regular girl to practically a Queen for the rest of her life. If people actually knew what the marriage was for and its intentions, they would stop using it as a constant attack on Islam.


How do you know that she wanted to be married with a much older man? How do you know that she ended up happy? And if she didn't: Do you really think that they'd even consider to write about it in that Koran? And do you think that she'd dare to say "no" to this marriage?

 

Stop blaming the time difference. Some things never change. She could've been a slave as far as we know.

Okay I'm understanding your position. Hopefully I can explain this to you so I can clear some of your confusion.

Aisha was happy with her marriage to Muhammad. She was actually extremely cocky and proud. Her marriage to Muhammad allowed her to do whatever she wanted because she was practically a Queen (like I said). She was also one of the first female leaders in Arabia, so this further boosted her cockiness. Aisha didn't write anything about herself in the Quran because the Quran is the word of God. The Haddith has stories written by Muhammad and Aisha in it and it was their own personal collection that others had no influence over. Aisha herself wrote most of the stories and she herself claimed everything I'm saying.

During the time of their marriage, Muhammad had become the most powerful individual in Arabia. EVERY woman wanted to marry him, so based on common sense, do you think Aisha would reject? Also you're mixing modern standards with standards of that era. During then, it wasn't the girl who chose who she got married to. It was her father who picked her husband (this was true in other non-muslim cultures too). Aisha was just lucky enough for the man to be Muhammad.

Finally, one of the first intentions of Islam (before prayers, before worship) was to abolish slavery and give equal rights to all individuals. This is because slavery was extremely common during that time. So no, Aisha was not a slave.

If you have any more questions/concerns, let me know. I'll be away from the computer for a bit so I might not reply until later.



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lordmandeep on 03 March 2012

Slaves existed in the Arab world long after the Prophet Mohammed.

Many it was banned but many still engaged in it.



Scoobes on 03 March 2012
Shinobi-san said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
Cirio said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
My vote goes to any decent human being of today that doesn't live by the moral code of some 1400-2000 year old men.

If you read the Quran or the Bible, you will learn that the "moral code" hasn't changed at all since then. In fact, most people are much worse now compared to those who followed the religions at that time. The only main issue I see is with the rights of homosexuals, which I agree that both religions frown against.

"most people are much worse now compared to those who followed the religions at that time"

Wow. 


@Andrespetmonkey I dont see the problem with people following the teachings of Jesus as a moral code?

I get the feeling people mix up the teachings of jesus (as in what was reported to be taught by jesus according to the bible) with that of the bible itself in full.

Like the issue of homosexuals...Jesus isnt reported to have said anything at all about it. Whether or not you can actually seperate Jesus from the rest of the bible is an interesting topic, after all he was a jew...its not like he purposefully started Christianity.

@Cirio I think in general people live much better lives now than they did in those times, irrespective of religion. Not that i can actually back this statement up, but im sure if i did some researching it would be pretty easy to back it up ;)

We can't be sure of that. He did come in with some pretty radical ideas for the time and was a leader of sorts. He may well have wanted to change the religious views to the point of forming a whole new religion/sect.




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Pyro as Bill on 03 March 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
binary solo said:

Mohammad was celebate until he got married to Khadija who was older than him. He remained monogamous until Khadija died. After she died all sorts of disciples and allied tribes offered daughters in marriage. Can you imagine, in a culture where multitudes of wives is an accepted norm, someone of Mohammad's status turning down a marriage offer? the sort of Embarassment that would cause the girl's father. And no doubt, again, due to the culture of the time that loss of face would be blamed on the girl not being good enough so she would have suffered.

Did you know that Islam was the first religion to limit the number of wives a man can have? In Judaism there was no limit on number of wives, and Jesus made no modifications to this aspect of Jewish law. That's why the Mormon's for instance started out allowing polygamy, they only repudiated it when they realised it was out of step with modern thinking and it limited the ability for them to have broader influence. And of course none of those religions established a minimum age for marriage. The first religious book to establish a minimum age for marriage was Baha'i which set the age at 15, for boys and girls. Indeed in many western countries as recently as the 1930s there were no laws about minimum age of marriage.

So marrying a 9 year old girl in the historical and cultural context of the time is a total non-issue.


That entire wall is out of context. The thing is that the christian religion is willing to make compromises and now allows no more than one wife per husband. All islamic followers, on the other hand, must follow each word of the Koran with no exceptions.

Fact is: Millions of people worship a man who'd be considered a pedophile nowadays. That is insane, and you say it's a non-issue.


The lowest age of consent in Europe is the Vatican.

12 years old.

Why 12?



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Shinobi-san on 03 March 2012
lordmandeep said:
The reason why there is doubt over Jesus existence is the lack of first hand real historical evidence.

The Romans recorded everything but the death of Jesus was not a big deal for them. It was simply a move to keep the Jews from rioting. That explains the lack of evidence from Roman historians.

i know why there is doubt over jesus existence.


My point was that historians generally accept Jesus as a person who existed and that it is a small minority who are critical of this view. You made it seem like this was not the case.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 03 March 2012
Cirio said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Cirio said:
lordmandeep said:

Many people find the child marriage "questionable" because they don't know anything about it and it's intentions. This marriage was actually more benefitial for Aisha because she went from a regular girl to practically a Queen for the rest of her life. If people actually knew what the marriage was for and its intentions, they would stop using it as a constant attack on Islam.


How do you know that she wanted to be married with a much older man? How do you know that she ended up happy? And if she didn't: Do you really think that they'd even consider to write about it in that Koran? And do you think that she'd dare to say "no" to this marriage?

 

Stop blaming the time difference. Some things never change. She could've been a slave as far as we know.

Okay I'm understanding your position. Hopefully I can explain this to you so I can clear some of your confusion.

Aisha was happy with her marriage to Muhammad. She was actually extremely cocky and proud. Her marriage to Muhammad allowed her to do whatever she wanted because she was practically a Queen (like I said). She was also one of the first female leaders in Arabia, so this further boosted her cockiness. Aisha didn't write anything about herself in the Quran because the Quran is the word of God. The Haddith has stories written by Muhammad and Aisha in it and it was their own personal collection that others had no influence over. Aisha herself wrote most of the stories and she herself claimed everything I'm saying.

During the time of their marriage, Muhammad had become the most powerful individual in Arabia. EVERY woman wanted to marry him, so based on common sense, do you think Aisha would reject? Also you're mixing modern standards with standards of that era. During then, it wasn't the girl who chose who she got married to. It was her father who picked her husband (this was true in other non-muslim cultures too). Aisha was just lucky enough for the man to be Muhammad.

Finally, one of the first intentions of Islam (before prayers, before worship) was to abolish slavery and give equal rights to all individuals. This is because slavery was extremely common during that time. So no, Aisha was not a slave.

If you have any more questions/concerns, let me know. I'll be away from the computer for a bit so I might not reply until later.

[Firstly, I'm glad that you keep this discussion at a civilized level.]

 


That was 1500 years ago, you should never trust information that's that old. Especially when considering that the source to all this has heavily skewed the info (or made all this up as far as we know) to match with the "perfect religion". An objective source would help out a lot here, but as for now, we're stuck.