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Forums - Politics - Alaska Bill Would Criminalize Invasive TSA Pat Downs

SamuelRSmith said:
In a space of two posts, we went from a discussion about the effectiveness and Constitutionality of a Government program, to a meme with a kid fapping.

I like to think of it as a commentary on the masturbatory nature of DHS policies.



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Kasz216 said:
SvennoJ said:
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:

 

2) You're protected against unreasonable search and seizure... not all search and seizure.  TSA patdowns happen when you repeatidly fail a metal detector/body scanner or something is picked up on either of those. 


That is bullshit because I know for a fact that they send random people in the line to the body scanners, and if you don't like the body scanner then you have to get a pat down.  To these random lucky people simply walking through the metal detector isn't an option.

That was metal detector or body scanner.   As in, you have to go through one or the other.  Some places it's just all body scanners.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable.

I didn't even have a choice, I simply got a check on my ticket as I joined the line to go through security, randomly selected for a search. Had to go through the metal detector, stand in a glass cage while my carry on was searched, and get a thorough pat down.
Sure I could refuse and then figure out an alternative way to get home. I went along with it but the next time I had to travel I choose to drive 9 hours instead of taking the plane, screw that.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=body+scanner+status&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7hE_T5GkJcnm0QHslcWqBw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1400&bih=862

You know what would be even safer, if we all fly naked, stick the clothes and luggage on a 2nd plane.

And if you don't care about your privacy then maybe about your health, the new backscatter x-ray body scanners
http://ihrrblog.org/2011/12/12/body-scanners-health-risk-and-politics/

No Body scanners aren't unreasonable, for boarding an object that weights 45 tons empty, that travels at 600 miles an hour and has around a hundred other people on it.

As for the health risk point... I'd note that your source is a blog... and not a health journal... and there is a very good reason for that.

Because there really isn't a health risk.  The only quote they could get from anyone remotely related to the issue was that there was a "Very small" risk.  Which could be something like .000000001%.

A poweful body scanner is estimated to give someone radiation equivlent to somewhere between  .1% to 1% of a Chest X-ray.

Worst case scenario if you fly 100 times a year , the body scanner is equal to one Chest X-ray... except it's been spread over 100 days.

You actually get more Radiation from the actual act of flying then you do a body scan.  Being higher in the air your exposed to much more radiation then land travel.  So in otherwords, if you are afraid of body scanner radiation... you shouldn't be flying anyway.

What about trains, subways, busses, boats, schools.

The point of that article was that there is still a lot unknown about the risks and there is nobody but the tsa themselves testing them. The EU didn't ban them for fun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2062646/Naked-airport-X-ray-body-scanners-banned-Europe-cancer-fears.html

The passengers are probably fine, how about the person working next to the machine 8 hours a day. What happens if the machine breaks and starts leaking radiation, is that possible.

I don't want my children to grow up in a world where it is normal to treat eachother like what happens now at airports. Oh well 30 more years and we won't be flying anymore anyway if we don't find an alternate source of fuel.



Commerce clause, people. The only flights the TSA would have no right to regulate under these laws would be intrastate flights, which would be a sizable enough market in Alaska, but nowhere else.

Plus the interpretation would run that any airport that offers interstate flights would be subject to the process

Although the whole "strip search" thing feels like people are deliberately blowing it out of proportion to me. People who force themselves into strip-search mode are already looking for trouble (similar to protestors who deliberately provoke police to later claim police brutality), because the machines are perfectly quick, viable, and with the added bonus of not having some stranger touch you (only having them look at the CG contours of your body, so no more embarrassing than if you were wearing a bodysuit)

Although this isn't to say that i feel the TSA method is optimally effective. Real anti-terror action comes from intelligence and the fieldwork of agents. The underwear bomber from 2009 was under suspicion by the federal authorities, they simply should have been more vigilant about denying him a visa.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

SvennoJ said:
Kasz216 said:
SvennoJ said:
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:

 

2) You're protected against unreasonable search and seizure... not all search and seizure.  TSA patdowns happen when you repeatidly fail a metal detector/body scanner or something is picked up on either of those. 


That is bullshit because I know for a fact that they send random people in the line to the body scanners, and if you don't like the body scanner then you have to get a pat down.  To these random lucky people simply walking through the metal detector isn't an option.

That was metal detector or body scanner.   As in, you have to go through one or the other.  Some places it's just all body scanners.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable.

I didn't even have a choice, I simply got a check on my ticket as I joined the line to go through security, randomly selected for a search. Had to go through the metal detector, stand in a glass cage while my carry on was searched, and get a thorough pat down.
Sure I could refuse and then figure out an alternative way to get home. I went along with it but the next time I had to travel I choose to drive 9 hours instead of taking the plane, screw that.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=body+scanner+status&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7hE_T5GkJcnm0QHslcWqBw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1400&bih=862

You know what would be even safer, if we all fly naked, stick the clothes and luggage on a 2nd plane.

And if you don't care about your privacy then maybe about your health, the new backscatter x-ray body scanners
http://ihrrblog.org/2011/12/12/body-scanners-health-risk-and-politics/

No Body scanners aren't unreasonable, for boarding an object that weights 45 tons empty, that travels at 600 miles an hour and has around a hundred other people on it.

As for the health risk point... I'd note that your source is a blog... and not a health journal... and there is a very good reason for that.

Because there really isn't a health risk.  The only quote they could get from anyone remotely related to the issue was that there was a "Very small" risk.  Which could be something like .000000001%.

A poweful body scanner is estimated to give someone radiation equivlent to somewhere between  .1% to 1% of a Chest X-ray.

Worst case scenario if you fly 100 times a year , the body scanner is equal to one Chest X-ray... except it's been spread over 100 days.

You actually get more Radiation from the actual act of flying then you do a body scan.  Being higher in the air your exposed to much more radiation then land travel.  So in otherwords, if you are afraid of body scanner radiation... you shouldn't be flying anyway.

What about trains, subways, busses, boats, schools.

The point of that article was that there is still a lot unknown about the risks and there is nobody but the tsa themselves testing them. The EU didn't ban them for fun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2062646/Naked-airport-X-ray-body-scanners-banned-Europe-cancer-fears.html

The passengers are probably fine, how about the person working next to the machine 8 hours a day. What happens if the machine breaks and starts leaking radiation, is that possible.

I don't want my children to grow up in a world where it is normal to treat eachother like what happens now at airports. Oh well 30 more years and we won't be flying anymore anyway if we don't find an alternate source of fuel.


Well actually that's  completely untrue.  Other people have been testing them... and deemed them harmless.  The EU ban is nothing but rank popular scare based on nothing.



Kasz216 said:
SvennoJ said:
Kasz216 said:
SvennoJ said:
Kasz216 said:
sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:

 

2) You're protected against unreasonable search and seizure... not all search and seizure.  TSA patdowns happen when you repeatidly fail a metal detector/body scanner or something is picked up on either of those. 


That is bullshit because I know for a fact that they send random people in the line to the body scanners, and if you don't like the body scanner then you have to get a pat down.  To these random lucky people simply walking through the metal detector isn't an option.

That was metal detector or body scanner.   As in, you have to go through one or the other.  Some places it's just all body scanners.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable.

I didn't even have a choice, I simply got a check on my ticket as I joined the line to go through security, randomly selected for a search. Had to go through the metal detector, stand in a glass cage while my carry on was searched, and get a thorough pat down.
Sure I could refuse and then figure out an alternative way to get home. I went along with it but the next time I had to travel I choose to drive 9 hours instead of taking the plane, screw that.

Body scanners aren't unreasonable?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=body+scanner+status&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7hE_T5GkJcnm0QHslcWqBw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1400&bih=862

You know what would be even safer, if we all fly naked, stick the clothes and luggage on a 2nd plane.

And if you don't care about your privacy then maybe about your health, the new backscatter x-ray body scanners
http://ihrrblog.org/2011/12/12/body-scanners-health-risk-and-politics/

No Body scanners aren't unreasonable, for boarding an object that weights 45 tons empty, that travels at 600 miles an hour and has around a hundred other people on it.

As for the health risk point... I'd note that your source is a blog... and not a health journal... and there is a very good reason for that.

Because there really isn't a health risk.  The only quote they could get from anyone remotely related to the issue was that there was a "Very small" risk.  Which could be something like .000000001%.

A poweful body scanner is estimated to give someone radiation equivlent to somewhere between  .1% to 1% of a Chest X-ray.

Worst case scenario if you fly 100 times a year , the body scanner is equal to one Chest X-ray... except it's been spread over 100 days.

You actually get more Radiation from the actual act of flying then you do a body scan.  Being higher in the air your exposed to much more radiation then land travel.  So in otherwords, if you are afraid of body scanner radiation... you shouldn't be flying anyway.

What about trains, subways, busses, boats, schools.

The point of that article was that there is still a lot unknown about the risks and there is nobody but the tsa themselves testing them. The EU didn't ban them for fun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2062646/Naked-airport-X-ray-body-scanners-banned-Europe-cancer-fears.html

The passengers are probably fine, how about the person working next to the machine 8 hours a day. What happens if the machine breaks and starts leaking radiation, is that possible.

I don't want my children to grow up in a world where it is normal to treat eachother like what happens now at airports. Oh well 30 more years and we won't be flying anymore anyway if we don't find an alternate source of fuel.


Well actually that's  completely untrue.  Other people have been testing them... and deemed them harmless.  The EU ban is nothing but rank popular scare based on nothing.

who else has been testing them? and what kind of test did they run? I couldn't find much besides this article which suggests there was not long term safety testing done, but just a one time test of how much radiation is used in one scan. It was done by NIST, but it did not metnion any long term testing.

 

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/30/did-airport-scanners-give-boston-tsa-agents-cancer/

 



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Kasz216 said:


Well actually that's  completely untrue.  Other people have been testing them... and deemed them harmless.  The EU ban is nothing but rank popular scare based on nothing.

Same reason we have to put up with all these extreme measures.



Mr Khan said:
Commerce clause, people. The only flights the TSA would have no right to regulate under these laws would be intrastate flights, which would be a sizable enough market in Alaska, but nowhere else.

Plus the interpretation would run that any airport that offers interstate flights would be subject to the process

Although the whole "strip search" thing feels like people are deliberately blowing it out of proportion to me. People who force themselves into strip-search mode are already looking for trouble (similar to protestors who deliberately provoke police to later claim police brutality), because the machines are perfectly quick, viable, and with the added bonus of not having some stranger touch you (only having them look at the CG contours of your body, so no more embarrassing than if you were wearing a bodysuit)

Although this isn't to say that i feel the TSA method is optimally effective. Real anti-terror action comes from intelligence and the fieldwork of agents. The underwear bomber from 2009 was under suspicion by the federal authorities, they simply should have been more vigilant about denying him a visa.

The Commerce clause does not give the Federal Government the power to override other parts of the constitution.

The commerce clause is completely misinterpreted, anyway. It's clearly obvious, when taken into context of the rest of the constitution, that "regulate" meant to "keep regular" rather than "do whatever the fuck you want".



SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:
Commerce clause, people. The only flights the TSA would have no right to regulate under these laws would be intrastate flights, which would be a sizable enough market in Alaska, but nowhere else.

Plus the interpretation would run that any airport that offers interstate flights would be subject to the process

Although the whole "strip search" thing feels like people are deliberately blowing it out of proportion to me. People who force themselves into strip-search mode are already looking for trouble (similar to protestors who deliberately provoke police to later claim police brutality), because the machines are perfectly quick, viable, and with the added bonus of not having some stranger touch you (only having them look at the CG contours of your body, so no more embarrassing than if you were wearing a bodysuit)

Although this isn't to say that i feel the TSA method is optimally effective. Real anti-terror action comes from intelligence and the fieldwork of agents. The underwear bomber from 2009 was under suspicion by the federal authorities, they simply should have been more vigilant about denying him a visa.

The Commerce clause does not give the Federal Government the power to override other parts of the constitution.

The commerce clause is completely misinterpreted, anyway. It's clearly obvious, when taken into context of the rest of the constitution, that "regulate" meant to "keep regular" rather than "do whatever the fuck you want".

You're right, however that's how it's interpreted by a huge swath of the body politic for a long time now. How I long to see some Santorum type use it to outlaw abortion on the grounds that we can't have people terminating future consumers and taxpayers willy nilly, just to see if the penny would finally drop that, derp, giving the federal government this kind of insane power is maybe not such a good thing.



HappySqurriel said:
SamuelRSmith said:
SvennoJ said:
It's about time somebody started to take our rights and dignity back that have been so readily discarded in the name of terrorism.


Well, loads of people try. The problem is that the two best ways of controlling the Feds are the States and the Supreme Court. The States are often blackmailed (cut your funding, impose regulations that harm your best industries, or in the case above - impose a NO-FLY-ZONE) into submission. Historically, it's mainly the Supreme Court that has kept Government in check.. and the Feds know this, so they do everything they can to stop cases going through to the courts. Dropping cases, offering settlements, etc.

I remember watching Andrew Napolitano talk about a case where the FBI had arrested two people for infringing the Patriot Act. When the case came to court, the Judge basically turned around to the FBI and said "do you really want to do this? I'm about to declare the Patriot Act unconstitutional", couple days later the FBI have mysteriously dropped the case. 

One thing that I have never really understood is why can't the constitutionality of a bill be challenged by anyone?

It would seem to me that any citizen, or group of citizens, whould be able to challenge constitutionality of any municipal, state or federal law passed regardless of whether they have been charged with breaking it.

It can be done, but it is easier to do if you actually have a case regarding the constitutionality of the law. The Federal Court system is designed primarily to avoid matters that don't pertain to constitutionality, such that you rather need to have a strong basis for something being unconstitutional to get federal courts to hear cases, not merely your claim of unconstitutionality. A physical case creates a greater claim than a lawsuit existing in a vacuum. States can get away with making direct lawsuits, because they are, well, states, and it is easier for a resident of a state to sue a state, which could then evolve into a federal case, but the 11th amendment dictates that non-residents of a state cannot sue said state (so if, say, i were gay and didn't like that whole Prop 8 thing in California, as a PA resident, i am legally barred from suing them)

Centuries of jurisprudence dictate that it is easier to make a case if you have an actual case, which makes sense because otherwise the whole thing would devolve into a constitutionality pissing contest, where special interest groups would immediate launch lawsuits in federal court for any law they didn't like. What happens instead is that groups like, for instance, NARAL Pro-Choice America look for a specific instance where someone is being brought up on anti-abortion laws, and they then contribute money to that individual, perhaps even provide them with lawyers, to take their case into higher court.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

SamuelRSmith said:
Mr Khan said:
Commerce clause, people. The only flights the TSA would have no right to regulate under these laws would be intrastate flights, which would be a sizable enough market in Alaska, but nowhere else.

Plus the interpretation would run that any airport that offers interstate flights would be subject to the process

Although the whole "strip search" thing feels like people are deliberately blowing it out of proportion to me. People who force themselves into strip-search mode are already looking for trouble (similar to protestors who deliberately provoke police to later claim police brutality), because the machines are perfectly quick, viable, and with the added bonus of not having some stranger touch you (only having them look at the CG contours of your body, so no more embarrassing than if you were wearing a bodysuit)

Although this isn't to say that i feel the TSA method is optimally effective. Real anti-terror action comes from intelligence and the fieldwork of agents. The underwear bomber from 2009 was under suspicion by the federal authorities, they simply should have been more vigilant about denying him a visa.

The Commerce clause does not give the Federal Government the power to override other parts of the constitution.

The commerce clause is completely misinterpreted, anyway. It's clearly obvious, when taken into context of the rest of the constitution, that "regulate" meant to "keep regular" rather than "do whatever the fuck you want".

Certainly that is how the commerce clause was originally intended, but given judicial precedent, that is how it would be interpreted in this case. And i would argue that there is a place for it, as it has provided the federal government with leverage against the states in instances where it was badly needed (i believe the commerce clause was useful in the civil rights act, for instance)

And the commerce clause would give the federal government power to override other parts of the constitution that pertained to commerce, like, say, the 10th Amendment, which would otherwise be the saving throw for Alaska and Texas in this case (that antiterrorism security is not a power specifically enumerated to the federal government, but if antiterror security is deemed essential for the airline business, then there you go)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.