Jay520 said: I would agree with you, but games like Uncharted & God of War aren't exactly unique and they've seen big success (relative to other Sony IPs).

Personally, I would say that those game are unique, and, most importantly, the epitome of their respective genres.  It's things like Resistance, Killzone and Ratchet and Clank that seem generic to me.  Not to say that they're bad from a technical level, but from an "appealing" level.  When people want a game like Uncharted or GOW, they turn to Uncharted and GOW.  When people want a FPS on PS3, they turn to COD, not Resistance or Killzone.

This is why I really like LBP as an IP.  I'm not as crazy about the games as I'd like to be; I think they still need some work (particularly in the control department), but I feel the IP really has the potential to do great things in the way of an exclusive platformer for Playstation... far more than R&C.  Sackboy is a very lovable character and I'm really glad to hear that they're making a kart racing game themed with LBP as opposed to another Mod Nation game.

archbrix said: Jay520 said: I would agree with you, but games like Uncharted & God of War aren't exactly unique and they've seen big success (relative to other Sony IPs). Personally, I would say that those game are unique, and, most importantly, the epitome of their respective genres.  It's things like Resistance, Killzone and Ratchet and Clank that seem generic to me.  Not to say that they're bad from a technical level, but from an "appealing" level.  When people want a game like Uncharted or GOW, they turn to Uncharted and GOW.  When people want a FPS on PS3, they turn to COD, not Resistance or Killzone. This is why I really like LBP as an IP.  I'm not as crazy about the games as I'd like to be; I think they still need some work (particularly in the control department), but I feel the IP really has the potential to do great things in the way of an exclusive platformer for Playstation... far more than R&C.  Sackboy is a very lovable character and I'm really glad to hear that they're making a kart racing game themed with LBP as opposed to another Mod Nation game.

I really don't see how those games are unique. They're really just doing what other games already did (Devil May Cry, Tomb Raider, etc) but do it better. Of course, there are unique components of both (both having unmatched cinematics for example) but the core of both games are pretty generic. I think you're over-associating quality with uniqueness. Uncharted & GoW are no more unique than Killzone or R&C imo, they're just of higher quality & appeal.

I'm not really sure what your main idea is, whether your trying to prove uniqueness as an important factor for sales, or if your just questioning my statement about Uncharted/GoW not being unique. If it's the former, then I will reply to that here. Your own example, LBP, is unique but sees low sales, while fairly generic games like CoD & Battlefield see super high sales. But then again, there are unique games that do sell really well, so I don't think we can really say if uniqueness is an important factor for sales.

Okay, this is really starting to annoy me after seeing it about a hundred times now. Sony should not develop less games, they should develop fewer games. God.

badgenome said: Okay, this is really starting to annoy me after seeing it about a hundred times now. Sony should not develop less games, they should develop fewer games. God.

less = fewer?

Khuutra said: Slimebeast said: RolStoppable said: Sony is bound to come late to the party and don't have the first party it takes to offset a headstart of the competition. Third parties won't go through the trouble of making improved PS4 versions of their game for a small installed base, so if Sony decides to make a vastly more powerful console than Nintendo and Microsoft, then their system is going to be underutilized, because it isn't worth the effort. Yes but I was asking what you would want to happen. But I think the answer is obvious (you're with Khuutra) so you can skip that one. I think it's very sad. My last hope for next gen to be graphically powerful and hardcore is Sony to be bold and try the expensive hardware route again even if it's against all odds. I built a PC so I won't have to worry about it. Nintendo just needs to give me the games I want, and third parties need to be desperate multiplatform whirlwinds. It's all so close. I can taste it in the air.

I'd be willing to bet real money that you're a mayan.

pezus said: ^No, the yen and TV business is killing them. The gaming part of the company is probably one of the few that is profitable by now.

Don't forget their Financial Services. Folks might not be eager to get their gaming fix from SON¥, but they don't think twice when it comes to life insurance. Imagine: PlayStation Home for the elderly!

Jay520 said: archbrix said: Jay520 said: I would agree with you, but games like Uncharted & God of War aren't exactly unique and they've seen big success (relative to other Sony IPs). Personally, I would say that those game are unique, and, most importantly, the epitome of their respective genres.  It's things like Resistance, Killzone and Ratchet and Clank that seem generic to me.  Not to say that they're bad from a technical level, but from an "appealing" level.  When people want a game like Uncharted or GOW, they turn to Uncharted and GOW.  When people want a FPS on PS3, they turn to COD, not Resistance or Killzone. This is why I really like LBP as an IP.  I'm not as crazy about the games as I'd like to be; I think they still need some work (particularly in the control department), but I feel the IP really has the potential to do great things in the way of an exclusive platformer for Playstation... far more than R&C.  Sackboy is a very lovable character and I'm really glad to hear that they're making a kart racing game themed with LBP as opposed to another Mod Nation game. I really don't see how those games are unique. They're really just doing what other games already did (Devil May Cry, Tomb Raider, etc) but do it better. Of course, there are unique components of both (both having unmatched cinematics for example) but the core of both games are pretty generic. I think you're over-associating quality with uniqueness. Uncharted & GoW are no more unique than Killzone or R&C imo, they're just of higher quality & appeal. I'm not really sure what your main idea is, whether your trying to prove uniqueness as an important factor for sales, or if your just questioning my statement about Uncharted/GoW not being unique. If it's the former, then I will reply to that here. Your own example, LBP, is unique but sees low sales, while fairly generic games like CoD & Battlefield see super high sales. But then again, there are unique games that do sell really well, so I don't think we can really say if uniqueness is an important factor for sales.

I wouldn't exactly say the core of Uncharted or GOW is generic, but I agree that it's not unique either.  However, it's the overall experience of the games that I find unique; like the end result being greater than the sum of its parts.  When I first played Uncharted, for example, any thoughts of Tomb Raider I may have had going in quickly faded.  In fact, the action is more similar to Gears of War (due to the cover system) than Tomb Raider.  And the platforming, storytelling, etc are so much better, that it really is in a league of its own.

I guess my point being that they are standout games, whether you attribute that to their individuality or their great quality.  Games like Resistance and Killzone don't have that standout appeal, IMO.  

And you're right, just because something is unique doesn't mean it's appealing or that it'll sell well.  Uncharted and GOW, as you said, may not be the biggest innovators when broken down, but put everything together and they become an experience that people right away associate with their names.  It's these kinds of memorable games that Sony needs more of. 

I've got to say that would be foolish for Sony to do. Nintendo releases plenty of games each year and sees massive success. Marketing is a major reason but franchising is as well. Sony bails on successful IP regularly and they do not maintain quality levels.

Example Crash and Spyro. But Sony also pretty much ditched Jak and Daxter and Sly. Resistance is not the strongest IP but Sony could out source it I'm sure they could find a developer.

In my opinion Sony needs to focus its marketing on a select five titles. The other titles are left to sell themselves. Sony needs strong IP God Of War is one Little Big Planet etc...etc.. focus a lot of assets on those established IP. But Sony needs to establish at least two new IP.

A major problem with Sony is their over all control over their developers. Sony needs to hand the reigns over to their developers. Go to their studios and say surprise me. Give them adequate funding to make their dream game. Just imagine what David Jaffe could have done with full control of his IP both new and old. Maybe if they had left Naughty Dog to create the Uncharted they had originally envisioned.

Sony doesn't give their developers freedom. Nintendo is so successful because their major developers have tons of freedom. Microsoft pushes their developers a lot harder then Nintendo but they focus on establishing IP.

Joelcool7 said: A major problem with Sony is their over all control over their developers. Sony needs to hand the reigns over to their developers. Go to their studios and say surprise me. Give them adequate funding to make their dream game. Just imagine what David Jaffe could have done with full control of his IP both new and old. Maybe if they had left Naughty Dog to create the Uncharted they had originally envisioned. Sony doesn't give their developers freedom. Nintendo is so successful because their major developers have tons of freedom. Microsoft pushes their developers a lot harder then Nintendo but they focus on establishing IP.

That seems to me a pretty spectacular misdiagnosis of the situation. Leaving aside the fact that Nintendo has been pretty much mailing it in for a while now, relying on the same old IPs, they also have the reputation of being extremely controlling. It was only a few years ago that Retro saw a mass exodus because Nintendo gave them so little creative leeway. I don't think that's such a bad thing, either, if you look at what too much developer freedom did to Gran Turismo Forever and what it's currently doing to The Last Guardian. But... wow. You got it completely ass backwards there.

Jay520 said: Jay520 said: Haven't read the last 50 posts, but I was wondering what some of you guys thought about my theory that Sony's relatively low sales is an effect of lack of quality/appeal rather than lack of marketing. Here's a post from earlier in the thread that I want some opinions on (besides those from Sales2099 of course) Advertising plays a large part in the low sales of many PS3 exclusives, but from what I've experienced through research and a lot of anecdotal evidence, the main reason behind the low sales of some PS3 games is a lack of good combination of quality and appeal. Games like Uncharted and God of War are high quality and appeal to the masses, hence, the higher sales. But then you have a game like say Killzone which is a well-made, quality game. But it lacks appeal. It's not very accessible. You try to get some new people to play it and the aiming feels clunky and slow. It's not necessarily low quality (well it is to some people), but it's not appealing. It's too hardcore to be largely successful on the PS3. (There are other things that hinder sales also like lack of competitive splitscreen). Or you take something like LBP, which is clever and innovating, & is certainly considered quality by a lot of people. But most PS3 fans won't even give it a chance because they think it's too kiddy. LBP problem isn't necessarily a lack of quality, it's a lack of appeal. And in some cases, it's a lack of quality due to most of the levels being mediocre and/or short. Or you take a game like SOCOM 4 which is just low quality. And in some cases, there are games like Infamous & Resistance which are good, but aren't considered top tier of their respective genres. At least that's from what I experienced. Most accessible, non-niche, high-quality games do sell well. Sony can make a lot more blockbusters. They just gotta make them the right way. Uncharted & God of War are great examples of high quality AND appealing titles. You could market most of the other aforementioned games (Killzone, LBP, InFamous), but they probably wouldn't see any drastic benefit due to lack of quality/appeal. Marketing isn't the factor crippling PS3 exclusive sales in my opinion. I want a reply before I go to bed, dammit! I will not be ignored!

I was going to reply yesterday, but wanted others to talk. Now that they did, I'll have my go.

For the record, I share opinions with Archbrix almost 100% of the time.

Jay, I radically agree with your post.

But the 1st paragraph is ambiguous (if you're looking for  constructive criticism). The question I ask for 1st para is, low sales of what? Overall?

"Overall", if you're being really pedantic, lack of sales is due to marketing, and the reason I say that Jay, is because the sales that could be achieved by marketing a game like UC could raise it several million (Maybe a full 5). However, a game like Resistance, as you said lacks appeal. Give it appeal, give it marketing, the most it can make is Gears sales, which is about 6Mil. I don't think that kind of game can really go that far, since the theme itself doesn't appeal to the masses. Plus, it's a highly competitive and saturated market the "us versus aliens" thing.

So marketing here is the most important factor, since Sony already has games with appeal; they just need to drop those that don't. I would also say LBP has lots of appeal, another thing I see a little differently.

But other than that, I agree 100%. If they are to make more IPs though (instead of pushing their current ones or while pushing their current ones), they need to make sure they are unique, of high quality, and appealing (either by theme, by content, or both). Sony needs to be on its A game now, they blew all their buffers for 2nd chances.