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Forums - Gaming - Jaffe: Cinematic narrative focus is a “bad idea, waste of resources”

kowenicki said:
Lafiel said:
kowenicki said:
Lafiel said:
kowenicki said:
I think this guy is a dick...

but he is on the right track here.

The pretentiousness of parts the gaming industry and some of its followers are becoming tiresome and a little embarrassing at times.

indeed, just like the pretentiousness of parts of the gamer community is becomming tiresome and a little embarrassing - I mean, come on, gamers talking about video game/hardware sales ? don't make me laugh

I dont think you know what pretentiousness means...

Numbers are cold hard facts that can be analysed and discussed, there is nothing pretentious about discussing them.  The artistic and story telling aspects of gaming is subjective and ethereal... which can easily descend in to a discussion full of prentiousness and with a hint of the emporers new clothes.

Nice try but if thats the best you can do then you arent equipped for the debate pal.

what a pretentious way of telling me that I'm dumb

hard numbers can be analysed - by people who are insiders of this industry and not by some boys on the interwebz

gamers should stick to gaming, like games should stick to gameplay

more condescending than pretentious... I apologise.

(you can now apologise for saying "some boys on the interwebz"  you dont know what I do or who I am - I'm perfectly well equipped to talk about sales numbers, finance and business)

Well, the point I was going to make has all gone wrong at this point, showing that I certainly am not properly equipped for the debate as you stated, so I guess there was no need for an apology, haha.

In the end I wanted to state, that I'm not doing what I should as a gamer i.e. sticking to gaming and that I'm perfectly fine with some/several gaming projects not sticking to pure gameplay.

Whatever, if you felt offended then I am sorry.

 



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Jaffe knows how to create controversy. Keeping his name out there, eh?



kowenicki said:

This article is where I am at.

 

Opinion: Critics Should Stop Praising Bad Storytelling

In a world where Gears Of War 3 can be widely-praised for its plot and script, Mark Butler argues that game critics need to have higher standards when it comes to stories.

 

Last week, reports emerged that Uncharted and Last Of Us developer Naughty Dog feel “disheartened” by the praise many games receive for decidedly average plot-construction and story, when they themselves work long and hard to imbue their titles with something a little more special.

While these comments turned out to have been taken somewhat out of context, I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that many games receive undue acclaim for rather average plots. Even more than this, I actually believe some games receive completely undeserved praise for downright terrible storytelling – and it’s something that I believe has to stop.

The example that most sticks out in my mind from recent months is Gears Of War 3. This climactic chapter in that most macho of testosterone-fuelled, beefcake trilogies serves up the kind of delicious set-pieces and adrenaline-pumping action we’ve come to expect, yet for all the attempts to make us care about the plight of its protagonists and the desperate struggle they face, it has all the narrative sophistication of a soft-core porn movie.

As FMV’s own Dave McConkey pointed out in his typically frank review,  the game’s plot is incoherent, nonsensical, bizarrely-structured and delivered in the form of clumsy exposition and stilted, cheesy dialogue that is merely designed to draw us from one thrilling gunfight or boss battle to the next. Even the moment that should have been Gears 3’s emotional power-house – a dramatic, tragic sequence involving a key character – is fumbled as you struggle to muster any meaningful attachment to the growling beefcakes that form its central cast.

Not Pictured: Complex story development and emotional resonance

Now, in and of themselves, the game’s storytelling shortcomings do not constitute a killer-flaw. Gears 3 is a blast to play, and Cliff Blezinski has quite reasonably pointed out that the series’ storyline and writing is not exactly meant to be Shakespeare. It’s a fun, dumb, epic action-blockbuster of a game – and does exactly what it sets out to do.

But reading many of the reviews written at the time of release, you’d think the story and its delivery was actually something quite incredible. It was lauded for its “emotional payoffs”, “thoughtful storytelling”, and even Edge – not exactly known for dishing out plaudits lightly – called the script “engaging…and well-plotted”.

This is something I find extremely difficult to get my head around. By all means praise Gears 3 for its terrific action and dramatic set-pieces, but its story?  Now you’re just being silly…

It seems to me that we have quite low standards when it comes to our expectations of video game storytelling. We seem to think that as long as the game is packaged ‘cinematically’, and possesses a certain amount of superficial polish, then that’s enough. But the sad truth is that plots which are considered good, or even great, in video game terms, would probably be laughed out of the room if they formed the narrative of a film or a novel.

There are a few other notable examples of absurd, problematic or even just plain bad storytelling that I’d say have been given a free-ride – or even applauded – by critics in recent memory.

Seeing Red: Many critics overlooked or even praised Rage's mediocre narrative

Last year’s eagerly-anticipated id/Bethesda collaboration Rage had excellent FPS action, but was let down by its stale, going-through-the-motions plot-line (when you don’t even give the player an adequate reason to dislike the villains of the piece until right near the game’s very sudden end, you know something is terribly wrong). Weirdly however, many reviewers either glossed over this issue altogether, or – in some cases – actually gave the wafer-thin characterization and crucial lack of motivation a resounding thumbs-up.

Likewise, the Assassin’s Creed series does a fine job of engaging when it comes to its historic period settings and story-lines, but the central thread revolving around personality-free waste-of-polygons Desmond is a tedious exercise in cumbersome exposition and bizarre, supernatural, mystical bullshit. Given that this nonsense has featured increasingly prominently in the games, and distracted ever-more from the intriguing ancestral adventures, you’d think more critics would have picked the developers up on this. But they haven’t.

Fresh in my mind at the moment, with its sequel incoming, is Final Fantasy XIII, which – on top of all the other reasons I could cite for disliking it – had such an impenetrable, poorly conveyed mess of ideas at its core that I simply gave up caring about anything or anyone within it (the fact that the main characters were all so hideously annoying didn’t really help, either). It’s so woefully bad that the only way you can decipher the game’s bizarre jargon, convoluted setting and myriad onslaughts of senseless information is by ploughing your way through the menu’s dense codex of long-winded text. But hey, most critics were ok with that so long as the cut-scenes looked pretty.

Even David Cage’s ‘interactive movie’ Heavy Rain, which was justly celebrated for its immersion, depth and cinematic approach to narrative, has been given a lot more praise for its storytelling than it probably deserves. In gaming terms, the way in which the story is revealed to us is original, compelling and even groundbreaking, but that story itself – as pointed out by Destructoid’s Jim Sterling in his terrific review – is littered with unresolved red herrings, gaping plot-holes and absurdly one-dimensional characters. Even more than this, the dialogue itself is sometimes clumsy, jarring or clichéd, and the voice-acting that delivers it is merely adequate rather than genuinely convincing.

The greatest story ever told? I beg to differ...

No one doubts the atmospheric excellence of Heavy Rain, nor the way in which it draws you into its experience so very vividly. But does it really boast a great story – one that is the pinnacle of what plotting in gaming can be? Given the vast majority of reviews, you’d think so.

But let’s say for a moment that Heavy Rain’s narrative were translated directly into a novel, film or a TV series, taking the interactive element out of the equation. Now, the narrative is not exactly bad, so you imagine it would be readily received as a decent little thriller. But that’s the point: it really wouldn’t be anything special – certainly not worthy of excessive attention, acclaim or celebration.

The fact is that the game uses a wholly familiar stylized serial-killer story, complete with clichéd character archetypes, cackling OTT villains and an implausible, climactic twist. It’s a well-worn narrative that is spun, in gaming terms, in a refreshingly original manner. Ultimately however, it is really nothing out of the ordinary as far as thriller stories go.

Dumb action movies, tacky crime novels and TV soap operas are often popular and entertaining in spite of average, ludicrous or even downright atrocious plots, but no one pretends these kinds of things are at the top of their respective artistic fields. The difference with video games is that many of the most high-profile, popular titles are held up to be intelligent exercises in storytelling, despite being merely on a par with their dumb but fun counterparts in the worlds of cinema, literature and television.

There are games which spin exceptional stories of course, and some deliver these brilliant narratives in a way that only games are capable of. The extraordinary mystery and power of BioShock; the gripping, complex narrative arc of LA Noire; and, most recently, the powerful poignancy of indie creation To The Moon, are all shining examples of accomplished storytelling in practice. However, for the most part, many games acclaimed for their storytelling don’t really deserve such gushing praise.

Developers, critics and gamers alike should have higher expectations when it comes to narrative and emotional impact

Why does all this matter? Well, it matters because gaming as a medium will never truly reach its ultimate potential if we continue to accept and applaud average and even sub-standard storytelling. If we say that poor plots, bad dialogue and woeful exposition are fine when they are not, we let developers off the hook and lower our own expectations in the process.

A fantastically entertaining game that has a rubbish story should be praised to the heavens for its gameplay, but pulled-up on its narrative failings. And we should save plaudits for plots that really deserve it, so that we can actually distinguish the truly great game stories from the merely adequate.

I don’t know about you, but I’d like to see more BioShocks, LA Noires and To The Moons. And if we don’t demand higher-standards from the people who write and structure gaming stories, the imperative for developers to actually attempt something above the ordinary and the clichéd becomes less and less clear.

Naughty Dog have been highly vocal about their desire to really push the boundaries of storytelling and emotional impact when it comes to their forthcoming survival-thriller The Last Of Us, and if they succeed in doing so they should be widely applauded for their achievements. But if critics continue to praise wholly undeserving titles for their stories at the same time, then such praise ultimately becomes meaningless – and that really is disheartening.

Great article, and I agree that we definitely need to raise the standards by which stories and storytelling are judged.



Excellent article you posted there Kowenicki.

When games like Heavy Rain are praised for their story I just roll my eyes, or the infamous "oscar worthy" story of GTA4.



Rob-Ot said:
Excellent article you posted there Kowenicki.

When games like Heavy Rain are praised for their story I just roll my eyes, or the infamous "oscar worthy" story of GTA4.


I didn't even finish GTA4 and I hate Nicko Bellic.  As for Heavy Rain, I say it's just baby steps towards the ultimate goal.  When I started gaming, it was one blip killing other blips to save a princess or something.  It's evolved at an amazing pace.  We're not done but we're getting there.



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Kasz216 said:
Spedfrom said:
Oh Jaffe, sometimes you should just shut the fuck up. What was God of War if not a cinematic game with a good story that also had exciting gameplay? You don't even know yourself you stupid ass.

Actually, previously he said how he didn't want to make anymore games like God of War because they were to cinematic...

even though... no by modern standards it wasn't that cinematic, and as for great story....

really that depends on how you feel about Kevin Sorbo and "Hercules the Legendary Journies".

It was about on par with an episode of that.


It's a shame then that he is renouncing to the type of games from which his best one was made.

The story in general is not the most original, yes. But the way it was presented was gripping and it was full of details that enriched it, such as the reason he is so pale looking and how Ares controlled him into undoing what he loved most. So yes, I still believe it was quite cinematic with a good focus on story. And it was because of that tight and polished balance between story, details and gameplay that I love the game so much.



He's right.

If I want a great story, I'll read a book. If I want a crappy story, I'll watch a movie. If I want a crappier story, I'll watch television. If I want an even crappier story, I'll play a cinematic video game.



Proud member of the SONIC SUPPORT SQUAD

Tag "Sorry man. Someone pissed in my Wheaties."

"There are like ten games a year that sell over a million units."  High Voltage CEO -  Eric Nofsinger

Rainbird said:
kowenicki said:

This article is where I am at.

 

Opinion: Critics Should Stop Praising Bad Storytelling

In a world where Gears Of War 3 can be widely-praised for its plot and script, Mark Butler argues that game critics need to have higher standards when it comes to stories.

 

Last week, reports emerged that Uncharted and Last Of Us developer Naughty Dog feel “disheartened” by the praise many games receive for decidedly average plot-construction and story, when they themselves work long and hard to imbue their titles with something a little more special.

While these comments turned out to have been taken somewhat out of context, I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that many games receive undue acclaim for rather average plots. Even more than this, I actually believe some games receive completely undeserved praise for downright terrible storytelling – and it’s something that I believe has to stop.

The example that most sticks out in my mind from recent months is Gears Of War 3. This climactic chapter in that most macho of testosterone-fuelled, beefcake trilogies serves up the kind of delicious set-pieces and adrenaline-pumping action we’ve come to expect, yet for all the attempts to make us care about the plight of its protagonists and the desperate struggle they face, it has all the narrative sophistication of a soft-core porn movie.

As FMV’s own Dave McConkey pointed out in his typically frank review,  the game’s plot is incoherent, nonsensical, bizarrely-structured and delivered in the form of clumsy exposition and stilted, cheesy dialogue that is merely designed to draw us from one thrilling gunfight or boss battle to the next. Even the moment that should have been Gears 3’s emotional power-house – a dramatic, tragic sequence involving a key character – is fumbled as you struggle to muster any meaningful attachment to the growling beefcakes that form its central cast.

Not Pictured: Complex story development and emotional resonance

Now, in and of themselves, the game’s storytelling shortcomings do not constitute a killer-flaw. Gears 3 is a blast to play, and Cliff Blezinski has quite reasonably pointed out that the series’ storyline and writing is not exactly meant to be Shakespeare. It’s a fun, dumb, epic action-blockbuster of a game – and does exactly what it sets out to do.

But reading many of the reviews written at the time of release, you’d think the story and its delivery was actually something quite incredible. It was lauded for its “emotional payoffs”, “thoughtful storytelling”, and even Edge – not exactly known for dishing out plaudits lightly – called the script “engaging…and well-plotted”.

This is something I find extremely difficult to get my head around. By all means praise Gears 3 for its terrific action and dramatic set-pieces, but its story?  Now you’re just being silly…

It seems to me that we have quite low standards when it comes to our expectations of video game storytelling. We seem to think that as long as the game is packaged ‘cinematically’, and possesses a certain amount of superficial polish, then that’s enough. But the sad truth is that plots which are considered good, or even great, in video game terms, would probably be laughed out of the room if they formed the narrative of a film or a novel.

There are a few other notable examples of absurd, problematic or even just plain bad storytelling that I’d say have been given a free-ride – or even applauded – by critics in recent memory.

Seeing Red: Many critics overlooked or even praised Rage's mediocre narrative

Last year’s eagerly-anticipated id/Bethesda collaboration Rage had excellent FPS action, but was let down by its stale, going-through-the-motions plot-line (when you don’t even give the player an adequate reason to dislike the villains of the piece until right near the game’s very sudden end, you know something is terribly wrong). Weirdly however, many reviewers either glossed over this issue altogether, or – in some cases – actually gave the wafer-thin characterization and crucial lack of motivation a resounding thumbs-up.

Likewise, the Assassin’s Creed series does a fine job of engaging when it comes to its historic period settings and story-lines, but the central thread revolving around personality-free waste-of-polygons Desmond is a tedious exercise in cumbersome exposition and bizarre, supernatural, mystical bullshit. Given that this nonsense has featured increasingly prominently in the games, and distracted ever-more from the intriguing ancestral adventures, you’d think more critics would have picked the developers up on this. But they haven’t.

Fresh in my mind at the moment, with its sequel incoming, is Final Fantasy XIII, which – on top of all the other reasons I could cite for disliking it – had such an impenetrable, poorly conveyed mess of ideas at its core that I simply gave up caring about anything or anyone within it (the fact that the main characters were all so hideously annoying didn’t really help, either). It’s so woefully bad that the only way you can decipher the game’s bizarre jargon, convoluted setting and myriad onslaughts of senseless information is by ploughing your way through the menu’s dense codex of long-winded text. But hey, most critics were ok with that so long as the cut-scenes looked pretty.

Even David Cage’s ‘interactive movie’ Heavy Rain, which was justly celebrated for its immersion, depth and cinematic approach to narrative, has been given a lot more praise for its storytelling than it probably deserves. In gaming terms, the way in which the story is revealed to us is original, compelling and even groundbreaking, but that story itself – as pointed out by Destructoid’s Jim Sterling in his terrific review – is littered with unresolved red herrings, gaping plot-holes and absurdly one-dimensional characters. Even more than this, the dialogue itself is sometimes clumsy, jarring or clichéd, and the voice-acting that delivers it is merely adequate rather than genuinely convincing.

The greatest story ever told? I beg to differ...

No one doubts the atmospheric excellence of Heavy Rain, nor the way in which it draws you into its experience so very vividly. But does it really boast a great story – one that is the pinnacle of what plotting in gaming can be? Given the vast majority of reviews, you’d think so.

But let’s say for a moment that Heavy Rain’s narrative were translated directly into a novel, film or a TV series, taking the interactive element out of the equation. Now, the narrative is not exactly bad, so you imagine it would be readily received as a decent little thriller. But that’s the point: it really wouldn’t be anything special – certainly not worthy of excessive attention, acclaim or celebration.

The fact is that the game uses a wholly familiar stylized serial-killer story, complete with clichéd character archetypes, cackling OTT villains and an implausible, climactic twist. It’s a well-worn narrative that is spun, in gaming terms, in a refreshingly original manner. Ultimately however, it is really nothing out of the ordinary as far as thriller stories go.

Dumb action movies, tacky crime novels and TV soap operas are often popular and entertaining in spite of average, ludicrous or even downright atrocious plots, but no one pretends these kinds of things are at the top of their respective artistic fields. The difference with video games is that many of the most high-profile, popular titles are held up to be intelligent exercises in storytelling, despite being merely on a par with their dumb but fun counterparts in the worlds of cinema, literature and television.

There are games which spin exceptional stories of course, and some deliver these brilliant narratives in a way that only games are capable of. The extraordinary mystery and power of BioShock; the gripping, complex narrative arc of LA Noire; and, most recently, the powerful poignancy of indie creation To The Moon, are all shining examples of accomplished storytelling in practice. However, for the most part, many games acclaimed for their storytelling don’t really deserve such gushing praise.

Developers, critics and gamers alike should have higher expectations when it comes to narrative and emotional impact

Why does all this matter? Well, it matters because gaming as a medium will never truly reach its ultimate potential if we continue to accept and applaud average and even sub-standard storytelling. If we say that poor plots, bad dialogue and woeful exposition are fine when they are not, we let developers off the hook and lower our own expectations in the process.

A fantastically entertaining game that has a rubbish story should be praised to the heavens for its gameplay, but pulled-up on its narrative failings. And we should save plaudits for plots that really deserve it, so that we can actually distinguish the truly great game stories from the merely adequate.

I don’t know about you, but I’d like to see more BioShocks, LA Noires and To The Moons. And if we don’t demand higher-standards from the people who write and structure gaming stories, the imperative for developers to actually attempt something above the ordinary and the clichéd becomes less and less clear.

Naughty Dog have been highly vocal about their desire to really push the boundaries of storytelling and emotional impact when it comes to their forthcoming survival-thriller The Last Of Us, and if they succeed in doing so they should be widely applauded for their achievements. But if critics continue to praise wholly undeserving titles for their stories at the same time, then such praise ultimately becomes meaningless – and that really is disheartening.

Great article, and I agree that we definitely need to raise the standards by which stories and storytelling are judged.

I'll agree too, but only if critics also agree to rip shit out of games that are buggy and crash a lot and require numberous patches before they start working with a reasonable degree fo reliability and not give them perfect scores when clearly they are not perfectly executed games.

There are 2 reasons video games turn into bad movies (almost without fail): the stories in the games aren't that great; and the script writers and directors hired to turn ordinary to poor stories into screen productions aren't the best talent either.

Honestly I don't know what Jaffe is trying to say. If someone suggested to him that video games should never have stories or narrative I think he'd strongly disagree. So, as worthy element of video games as a whole, but not essential every single video game, would it not be a good thing to seek to improve story and narrative quality of video games generally? Hence would it not be good for the video game industry to use talented story/narrative writers who have something interesting to say who also understand the video game medium? Video games should also have gameplay that people enjoy. It's clear that good gameplay and good story/narrative are not mutually exclusive. A game can have both.

Are there games that go too far with the narrative, cinematics and story? I don't know, I haven't played one myself where I think story was too much of the focus at the expense of enjoyable gaming.

For me video gaming needs to grow as a story-telling medium, not retreat back to bare bones narrative. I really hope Naughty Dog can move the story telling evolution along another substantial step. I also enjoy playing Angry Birds. I don't ever want to exclusively play arcade games, and I don't ever want to exclusively play cinematic story driven games. I want them both, and I want all component parts of every game I play to be as high quality as possible. I can't understand Jaffe wanting the gaming industry to only ever have mediocre to poor story writers writing the stories for video games.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

amp316 said:
He's right.

If I want a great story, I'll read a book. If I want a crappy story, I'll watch a movie. If I want a crappier story, I'll watch television. If I want an even crappier story, I'll play a cinematic video game.

What if you want to feel like you're part of the story?



d21lewis said:
amp316 said:
He's right.

If I want a great story, I'll read a book. If I want a crappy story, I'll watch a movie. If I want a crappier story, I'll watch television. If I want an even crappier story, I'll play a cinematic video game.

What if you want to feel like you're part of the story?

I walk outside and live my own story.



Proud member of the SONIC SUPPORT SQUAD

Tag "Sorry man. Someone pissed in my Wheaties."

"There are like ten games a year that sell over a million units."  High Voltage CEO -  Eric Nofsinger