"For a game that target a very small base to have the cost of HD make over is absolutely invalid for any logical bussiness strategy."
Again In PC gaming HD is nothing new so the cost is in the art. Since most games are in 3D then games can run in much higher resolution without increase cost. This is exactly what Stardock did with Galciv2 graphic engine. The higher the resolution the better the 3d models got.

You don't get it. PS3 games don't have to be HD/super expensive. Stupid blinders...

Im gonna agree with WoW on this one. Not all ps3 games need to be HD or Expensive eventhough like 90% of developers will go for that. Look at disgaea 3, its has nothing that wii couldn't do but its a ps3 exclusive. Way of the Samurai in the future will be the same thing. It will have shitty graphics and will not have anything the wii couldn't do but it will still be on the ps3.

btw this is tk1797 but for some reason i can't log on to my other account.

Casual gamers likely do not care *too much* about graphics but as everyone states how PS3/360 is for "hardcore" gamers, those people will care. Those types of gamers are the ones who pay attention to some of the hardware specs and details and there's definitely evidence to suggest that the PS3 and 360 has a higher proportion of those people than the wii.

The PS3 can definitely do low end graphics like the wii, that's obvious. However, how well do you think the typical PS3 owner will react to a game with that level of graphics when the PS3/360 has promoted themselves primarily on their HD abilities. The biggest claim over the wii is that they are graphic powerhouses and that its the true "next gen". If you recall, Sony originally stated all their games will be in 1080p (yeah right).

Even for wii owners, there's a limit to how much graphic reduction they will accept. Everyone made fun of Cruisin for being ugly and a previous gen game, the same for a lot of other games and yet its the console that should be least concerned with graphics.

Now translate that to the PS3 which people supposedly do care about being HD ultimate KZ2 whatever graphics. Do you think they'll accept a previous gen game as much as Wii owners will?

Bod is right on in that budget increases to make certain games in HD will kill certain genres. Games like Fire Emblem or other SRPG's have just way too small of a userbase to ever justify a $10-20 mil budget. They have the advantage in that their userbase are extremely loyal and will buy it regardless of how it looks, thus they can skimp a bit on graphics. In that case, they have to go to the system with the largest install base to make sure that they're getting as much of that loyal fanbase as possible.

Yes, I suppose so. Given my previous argument about developer's wishes, it makes it even more likely. I suppose I let my personal bias, that JRPGs are not the optimum kind of RPG, lead me to the conclusion that they will be replaced eventually. Although given how Square has turned away from (for example) turn based battles, I do believe it is an ongoing process.

I would just like to use this time to point out Suikoden's amazing flaw in every single god damn game: War.

No, not the warline story. But the war battles themselves that have varied from Rock Paper Scissors to tiny strategy games to "We're not evening pretending you control this anymore" to a slightly more complicated version of Rock Paper Scissors.

Also, needs more Yuber.

Never played Suikoden games. Maybe I'll give it a try if this pans out.

I would agree that the genre may disappear over years and years and decades, Helios, but as I said, I think it's mostly that the number of people who would be interested in this particular style of entertainment has been maximized, and that the lack of growth is largely a consequence of this.

But it's really only an example, and I want to point the way to a larger trend; there are really only a certain number of us nerds (I hope you don't mind me including you? I'm certainly one!) who like star wars and big melodramatic stories about saving the world from demons and sorcerers, just as there are only so many people who want to play Madden or who want to play NBA 2k8 or who love cars so freaking much that they'd pay 400 dollars for a PS3, 100 dollars for a realistic racing wheel with pedals, and 60 dollars for a game just so they can worship the beauty of cars. Eventually, the number of people interested in these various hobbies maximizes, and I think for many of these segments (including all the ones I've just mentioned) the size of the market has gotten about as big as it's ever going to get. It will increase with population growth (5-7% a decade), but beyond that, I doubt we'll see much more.

Which means that for every one of these genres, there is a certain amount of revenue that they're capable of achieving on a yearly basis, and they can't realistically push well beyond it. Frankly, it's a bit like toilet paper --  the market's demand for the product has been saturated, and the toilet paper industry's revenue streams presumably don't do much more than increase with inflation and population growth. 

And as such, there will come a time for ALL of these genres (not necessarily now, but probably within the next decade for most) where the flatlining demand no longer justifies the balooning costs. There will be a point for many of these stagnant genres where developers will have to say: "No more. We cannot afford to make these games any more complex or graphically impressive, because the cost is to high."

I agree with WoW, but I also believe I understand what Bodhesatva is saying, which is more how I think.
As we're talking JRPG, it picked my interest. I've said countless times that I expect the Wii will get the most JRPG especially because of what is discussed here : the push for graphics both HD consoles have made, and the fact that most JRPG don't generate enough sales to support that.
Many will try to stay the course, but I predicted most would fail, and for now, it's scary how right I was.
I felt all those resisting would go bankrupt or go Wii, and I thought most would realize Wii is the only option before going bankrupt. In my eyes, that's what is unfolding right now, to a scary level.
To this day, I've seen every JRPG on the current gen HD consoles fail miserably, in the sense that they lost a huge amount of money, except on Wii. For now, the only exception I see on Wii is Opoona.
But on the HD consoles, oh god! It's a disaster! Given the millions poured into the HD JRPG games, the bitterness must be high among developers.
Of course, I expect the big ones, or the famous studios like Level 5 to sustain themselves despite putting big production values in their games, though I doubt even Level 5 can produce their own games on HD consoles. I think only Square Enix can survive that.
Then, you have the studios paid by the console maker.
And you have the level below, with new IP with medium production value, that will fail so abysmally that they'll be forced to go cross-platform. I'm thinking of Trusty Bell for example.
Then the next level, like Namco, which will use lower production value still, but I bet if they fail abysmally too, they will also be forced to go cross-platform. I'm thinking of ToVesperia like games.
Then, there are the lowest production value, that WoW was talking about. There are games like that, and they fail even more badly, because the HD consoles owner just find it unacceptable to pay such prices for so low quality compared to what the console makers promised. I'm thinking of games like Agarest Senki. These Idea Factory games could have lived easily on PS2, but on HD consoles, it seems few people want to even pay for them.

Lots of people say that the western market will make these games viable. For now, reality shows the contrary. If anything, people are even more graphics whores in the West, and as such, the games even at the level of Trusty Bell or Blue Dragon are seen like garbage for kids.

Thus the epic fails I felt would happen, and thus why most JRPG makers will IMHO be forced to go Wii or bankrupt. If no game is delayed, like I thought, the Wii will be the JRPG king before the end of H1 2008 in Japan, which is amazing.


On another topic, I disagree with the people that say HD is easy because PC devs have done it for years. These people quickly forget that consoles are no PC power wise. The PC needed to run even the most basic of these games are more powerful than any console.
You don't need to look at anything else beside memory. All these games that can be run in 1280x1024 (which is more than 720p) use PC that have 512 Mo of RAM or more, and are installed entirely on hard drives (that's for mass memory), which are faster than any optical drive.
I'll not even talk about the processors and graphic cards.
So no, really, there's no comparison as to the amount of work needed to optimize the games for consoles or for PC. That's why PC devs can survive with so low PC game sales : they have far less work to do to achieve the same thing.

Even I have a limited time to play games Soriku.  I can't get around to playing everything.