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Forums - Microsoft - Mass Effect 3 Demo Shows the Absurdity of Xbox Live Gold - 1UP

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pitzy272 said:

 

First off I agree with a number of your points. Services offered by Facebook, Google, and Live are very different in their functionalities and how they do business. That much is obvious. My argument there was not to say they are the same, but that a service like ONLINE GAMING should be free if other companies can allow free access to their services and STILL make a profit. If you want to counter by saying Microsoft is justified because charging for ONLINE helps MAXIMIZE their profits, then every service out there, including Facebook and Youtube and other services should also charge a small fee in order to maximize THEIR profits too right? Arguing against this would simply be saying Microsoft is somehow more privileged and other companies are exempt. Ads and commercial breaks are not the only way Microsoft can make money. Sites like Facebook do this because it is simple to do and people don't complain since it is still free, yet even for Gold members, ads STILL appear on their dashboard why is that? Why can't Microsoft make profit through other means like I don't know... investing in more game studios and pump out more games? Taking risks should always be more encouraged. Look at any kind of competitive field in our world today and playing the safe side by not investing in things like more game studios shows a lack of trust in your own abilities. This is how companies like Apple got to where they are, by investing in their technology and not by charging to simply use their iTunes or to simply access the AppStore. These things seem fairly obvious they should be free, but the point is there. I'm trying to show that companies need to TRUST their innovations and not necessarily on all the smaller things.  

I also don't have a problem with paying for services that truly DO deserve all the profit they get. However, all those services you listed though are only offered through paid subscriptions. Movie rentals and instant access to TV shows were never free. Internet was never free. But online gaming has been free FOR A LONG TIME now. For those who say fine, stick with Sony and Nintendo or whatever if you want free online and stick with Microsoft if you don't mind subscription based online. But if you've noticed, people are already speculating subscription based online might be the norm now since Microsoft proved it to be "so successful." Repeating what I said before, there are many other ways to make a profit; one big way is to continually innovate. Where do I get free online then if every company decided to follow this? The argument is invalid because they are assuming this won't affect future generations. So again with my Facebook analogy, since social networking sites have been free basically forever, would you want them to starting making subscriptions a normal thing for access to sites like Facebook? Something erroneous like "they make more profit this way" would not satisfy consumers, and neither should Microsoft forcing fees for online gaming. I'm not whining, but the fact of the matter is I've always had online gaming for free and if companies make subscription based gaming a reality, it will be easy to point fingers at Microsoft. You might then say it's not Microsoft's fault that other companies can't make a profit. Well my point is Microsoft is not being creative enough in how they make a profit if they NEED to charge for online. Ever since Apple revolutionized the tech industry, every company has struggled to figure out how they can compete and are resorting to cheap methods for making a profit instead of thinking outside the box and innovating. They are basically only thinking in short terms instead of longevity for the future. A lot of companies are at fault for this, Sony included. And please, do you really think Sony is losing BILLIONS because of solely their Playstation Division?? No, they lack innovation in many of their OTHER divisions and they should not RESORT to something like charging for online. Since Microsoft is not as successful as Apple, does that give them the right to do whatever they want? Microsoft charging for online simply tells me they don't want to innovate and will use any means to make money. Instead they should send the message that they are here to stay and to keep being a respectful company, no matter how bad things seem. I am willing to bet Microsoft will drop out of the gaming industry if their losses were like Sony's. Yet Sony seems willing to stay despite their losses, they even are making dedicated handhelds still along with Nintendo despite its losses as well. Everyone keeps saying there is no room for dedicated handshelds anymore but they are still pushing it. And online is still free on them. Where is Microsoft's handheld? Oh right, they are only interested in profit. Nothing more. Sony and Nintendo are heavily interested in profit too. But why are they still making handhelds? Every media outlet in the world still say they are doomed. This mentality of offering what consumers DESERVE should be encouraged by us as gamers instead of the other way around, where we are encouraging what companies deserve, otherwise they are going to keep sapping us out of our money and not innovate and we DEFINITELY deserve to play the games we paid for to its fullest extent. Keep all those extra, nice features on Gold, Microsoft. But give us the ability to play the games WHEN we want, not after we pay you. Again, Nintendo and Sony are NOT saints, much like any other company. But they are getting some things right and the option of free online gaming is one of them. Even if Microsoft is able to pay for the service by the revenue they gain through Xbox Live, they still are not respecting their consumers and desperately need to change their policies that don't just reflect their own interests. I'm not even asking for much AT ALL. Free online gaming is not hard to give in the first place.

PS+ offers additional content on top of the games you already pay for. Many other services also offer ADDITIONAL content through paid subscriptions. Such examples include file sharing websites, like Megaupload which offers faster speeds among other things if you pay. But it's still free to use, albeit limited in functionality. This is very comparable to PS+. But what the hell does Silver offer? You can't use your own internet with Silver when online gaming is not included. Why does Microsoft think they don't need to provide free services to their customers? They paid for the console already. This would be like Netflix charging you before you can turn on your TV. That analogy doesn't fully work since turning on a TV is not a "service." But you get my point. When you point out cable/satellite for TV and calling/texting for phones, I've said it before, those have always been fee based from the start while online gaming has not. You might then say, so what if Microsoft wants to approach their business differently? They can formulate their business however they desire, but not offering, as I said before, DECENT ONLINE for free members shows they are not interested in providing better content and only want what's best for their company, nothing else. Sure, every other company care about themselves also, but at least they understand what should be free and what shouldn't. Facebook is free because they understand that it should be free. You say nothing is truly "free" but how does that add to this discussion? I am merely arguing for FREE ONLINE and how companies should move forward, not something like how our liberties or independence are never truly "free."

Now to respond to some of your other points that I missed, I was merely pointing out Nintendo and Sonys' online because they know what should be free as do many other companies like YouTube and Facebook. If Nintendo and Sony decide to make their services fully subscription based, it's not that they acknowledge that online gaming should be a privilege but they have fallen into Microsoft's trap by thinking short term profit is the way to go. Microsoft probably wants this to happen so people will stop thinking charging for online is wrong. Who can blame Sony and Nintendo when they are losing money as they are? But is that what we want from Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony? This only spells doom for the gaming industry and if someone powerful as Apple comes along and offers virtually everything superior for free since they have the means to do so, then I can safely say gaming is dead because Apple doesn't know a thing about gaming. But back to my original point, comparing the quality of Nintendo and Sonys' online to Xbox Live's to begin with is an unfair comparison. Live has been around since the first Xbox and if you don't remember, Xbox Live from the beginning was nothing like Xbox Live today. Nintendo at least has online on Wii and is only seriously starting to venture in it now while Sony started an actual online service with the PS3. You should also agree PSN from the start vastly improved to what it is now. That is what I meant by "on par" not that Live and PSN are completely equal but equal in terms of what basic things are being offered. I am almost positive that Sony's online for their next console will be way more robust and I can only hope Nintendo will be able to do the same right out of the gate. For Steam, you also pointed out for Microsoft that it costs money to maintain all those people downloading from their servers. Uhh, isn't that the same thing for Steam? Steam also has free demos too. They host their own betas too. How did Steam grow to what it is today? You point out that Steam makes their profit through other means like the pricing of the games and similar features to Live to make it appealing. But there is a very distinct difference. They respected their customers the whole way. They had a rocky start but they have succeeded by getting this far without charging for simple access. My QUESTION then is, why does Microsoft think online NEEDS to be part of Gold in order for it to be appealing? A lot of people are saying without online, people will stop paying for Live therefore not giving Microsoft the revenue to support their service. These are the people getting confused by what should and shouldn't be free. If Microsoft needed to include online gaming with Gold, doesn't that mean Live really isn't worth it despite all these new features they offer? Why are we blaming ourselves for Microsoft not getting the needed revenue? The real issue is we need to make it clear to them we demand for innovations in new technology instead; this is where Apple was successful. Microsoft can get creative however they want to make a profit, but charging for online is anything BUT creative, same with Online Passes. Apple is successful not because they were thinking solely of profit, but thinking what consumer's demands were at each step of the way. And people like me DEMAND for free online gaming as a required option. Notice I said option; it doesn't mean Microsoft can't offer some insanely good service for Gold for a reasonable price. Thus you can site many innovations from Apple. Microsoft and Sony will eventually be stuck in a rut if all they can think of is how they can extract every penny from their customers and not be in the mindset of innovation instead. If Microsoft made online gaming free, that would be a good first step. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo, please think of new and exciting ways to make money and continue to grow as companies. I don't know about you, but Apple's inventions have always intrigued me like the original iPod. Exciting technology and they still make money. It's a win-win for both us and the company.

I hope you read all my words carefully as I have implied a lot of things but tried my best to show everyone the bigger picture. Don't just nitpick little quotes and try to say my entire argument is flawed because of it, usually because they are taken out of context and I did not mean those things. People who say I am just wasting my time and should just let people buy what they want I just want to say this: I am just concerned by where this industry is heading. We have continued to see with this generation how Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are trying to stay away from losses by thinking of UNNECCESSARY ways of charging us (Microsoft with fee based online, Sony with online passes, Nintendo with those fees on NES games as you pointed out). I love gaming and have many fond memories of it. I want to see gaming to continue for many, many years and be excited the whole way. I would very much hate to see any companies fail but if they died trying while continually respecting us as consumers then that is even more of a shame. This is the only time I have ever expressed my opinions like this, but I felt like taking the time to get my thoughts out. I've only just joined this forum and already I am speaking my mind lol. I have some free time so why not? I also appreciate that you did not think of my opinions as lesser than yours unlike some other people here, although the naive comment hurt a little lol. I hope people don't tell me "I'm whining" as that is just ignorant and an easy way for them to dismiss my argument.


This is the longest post I've ever seen


Yep. It was typed for no reason at all. I doubt anyone will ever read even half of those 'paragraphs'



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nightsurge said:

Such a completely flawed counter post that in no way whatsoever deserving of /thread. I won't even begin to disuss why the comparison to Facebook or Google is incredibly ridiculous.

You want to know why Steam, Sony, and Nintendo don't charge for their services? (1) Because they make the GAME DEVELOPERS front a lot of the cost of bandwidth and host the servers, while Microsoft fronts the bill for every multiplayer game on Xbox Live (except for dedicated server games, but MS will still host all the matchmaking services and trueskill). Do you have any idea how much it costs to host millions of users on an online service? It is not cheap, and most certainly not free. Why else do you think Sony all the sudden started trying to charge $50 a year for what boils down to a discount package? To make up the costs of all their bandwidth, data management, etc. Why else do you think the Playstation product division remained so negative in profits for so long even after becoming profitable on hardware? (2) Steam doesn't even host multiplayer for anything other than Valve's own games. Everything else is the game developers themselves. And then we have the Wii which is a broken and unorganized service that is more of a hassle than a benefit when it comes to playing online.

This is why most multiplatform games have better multiplayer on Xbox Live (which is proven very easily by the majority of experiences from users that have both PSN and Xbox Live and any unbiased comparison). Because MS hosts the servers and have all the years of experience in getting the best results and they also integrate everything so well across all games. But I am getting ahead of myself by going that route.

Yes, perhaps they could offer just basic, dumbed down multiplayer for free to silver, with no voice chat, cross game chat, no friend invites/messages, or any other bonuses to Gold, but what would be the point? The best things about Xbox Live is playing with friends, talking trash or making new friends, or simply chatting with your friends regardess of what you are doing on Xbox Live via Party/Private Chat.

The fact of the matter is, these are services provided by companies that involve a very considerable cost in multiple ways. That cost has to be paid for somehow, either by the game developers, the main company providing the service, or it can be passed on to the customers using the service in return for all the value and better quality that the service provides. Personally, and I know I am very far from alone here, I don't mind paying a small fee ($35-50 a year) for services that offer a much higher level of quality and value than other alternatives.


1. Do you have a link for Steam charging developers for bandwidth? The charge for developers, as far as I can tell, is simply taking royalty charges in the same way any publisher does or any console manufacturer charges royalties for having games on their system. In fact, the low cost for developers to bring a game to Steam is why there are so many Indie titles available on the service.

2. My understanding is that any game developer that uses steamworks for a title essentially gets the same service and support X-box Live provides including the matchmaking, acheivements, community features, updates/patching and DLC. In fact, the DLC issue is why EA games have an issue with Steam because they wanted to host and sell all their DLC through Origin instead of Steam. This is ignoring the cloud storage of 100mb per game they provide for saved game backups. All of this is free for developers and for users.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/01/30/valve_releases_steamworks_toolset_for_free/1

So the question really should be, if Valve can manage to offer similar services to X-box Live and PSN, what are MS and Sony doing wrong that they either have to charge customers to play or lose a lot of money?



youarebadatgames said:
pezus said:


Microsoft host servers for all online games? Is this true? 


They do the matchmaking, stat tracking, and under the hood stuff that makes it possible but a lot of the game servers are local and P2P.  Even so, you need a way of matching up players.  Even PC dedicated servers require a master server list that publishes who's running what game.

Steam does all that for free though doesn't it?



fastyxx said:

4.  Steam is a store and a store only.  The price for their bandwidth is included in the pricing of their games.  Simiar to Live, their social features, like friends and acheievements, are set up only so that you feel almost obligated to use their retail portal so that they can be a dominant retailer of digital downloads.  You are paying per download in the price of each game versus a subscription fee. 

You must have used Steam in 2005...

Welcome to 2012, where Steam isn't only a Store but a full blown online service with all the services (plus a few extra) offered by X-box Live and PSN:

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php

You can add to that list cloud storage for storing saved games (up to 100mb per game)



Scoobes said:
fastyxx said:

4.  Steam is a store and a store only.  The price for their bandwidth is included in the pricing of their games.  Simiar to Live, their social features, like friends and acheievements, are set up only so that you feel almost obligated to use their retail portal so that they can be a dominant retailer of digital downloads.  You are paying per download in the price of each game versus a subscription fee. 

You must have used Steam in 2005...

Welcome to 2012, where Steam isn't only a Store but a full blown online service with all the services (plus a few extra) offered by X-box Live and PSN:

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php

You can add to that list cloud storage for storing saved games (up to 100mb per game)


You're missing the point.  The only reason they HAVE those features is so that you'll buy all your product in the one integrated space.  They make their money by being your store - the community and social functions and cloud storage and the like are solely there so that you'll buy all your digital downloads in one place.  Versus a Live, where it serves that purposebut also must entice you to buy the console and the accessories and invest in the brand enough to buy the next console, and to tie you to bing and windows, etc. etc.  It goes so far beyond just the simpler goals of Steam.  



Can't we all just get along and play our games in peace?

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TheKoreanGuy said:
pitzy272 said:


This is the longest post I've ever seen

Sorry, but the people here seem to think I'm just talking like I have no clue unless I thoroughly express my opinion. There may be other various factors to this debate but hopefully I covered a lot of it. I probably won't ever do that again haha

I'm not going through all that stuff point-by-point, but you really don't see the big picture.  It's just so illogical.  "Something was free for me for years, therefore it should always be free, no matter how much the product/world/costs/circumstances change."  One of the biggest logical traps ever.  

I mean, you're using megaupload as an example.  A pirate site.  That was raided and the guy who ran it was wanted in like 50 countries, and they had to raid his compound and drag him away in cuffs and confiscate the millions he made illegally abusing international law.  What a great example of fine business practices.

It jsut makes my brain hurt.  What it comes down to is what others have said.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees.  But one way or another they need to cover costs or the y lose money and are out of the business of making consoles.  



Can't we all just get along and play our games in peace?

And you felt the need to complain about this because? What was even the point of this article?



fastyxx said:
Scoobes said:
fastyxx said:

4.  Steam is a store and a store only.  The price for their bandwidth is included in the pricing of their games.  Simiar to Live, their social features, like friends and acheievements, are set up only so that you feel almost obligated to use their retail portal so that they can be a dominant retailer of digital downloads.  You are paying per download in the price of each game versus a subscription fee. 

You must have used Steam in 2005...

Welcome to 2012, where Steam isn't only a Store but a full blown online service with all the services (plus a few extra) offered by X-box Live and PSN:

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php

You can add to that list cloud storage for storing saved games (up to 100mb per game)


You're missing the point.  The only reason they HAVE those features is so that you'll buy all your product in the one integrated space.  They make their money by being your store - the community and social functions and cloud storage and the like are solely there so that you'll buy all your digital downloads in one place.  Versus a Live, where it serves that purposebut also must entice you to buy the console and the accessories and invest in the brand enough to buy the next console, and to tie you to bing and windows, etc. etc.  It goes so far beyond just the simpler goals of Steam.  

Yes, because MS gets no money from the millions of map packs, DLC, and full blown games that are sold on Live, and that's ignoring the extra revenue streams from advertising. Revenue from digital sales on Live is rapidly increasing to a point where Live is likely sustainable without the subscription (or soon will be). Even MMOs are rapidly going the free-to-play route and getting money through micro-transactions, optional purchases etc. and oddly enough many are finding that revenue has actually increased due to an increase in users.

As for the second part of your post, I'm not sure what the differing goals of Live and Steam have to do with running costs when they both have similar features.



fastyxx said:
TheKoreanGuy said:
pitzy272 said:


This is the longest post I've ever seen

Sorry, but the people here seem to think I'm just talking like I have no clue unless I thoroughly express my opinion. There may be other various factors to this debate but hopefully I covered a lot of it. I probably won't ever do that again haha

I'm not going through all that stuff point-by-point, but you really don't see the big picture.  It's just so illogical.  "Something was free for me for years, therefore it should always be free, no matter how much the product/world/costs/circumstances change."  One of the biggest logical traps ever.  

I mean, you're using megaupload as an example.  A pirate site.  That was raided and the guy who ran it was wanted in like 50 countries, and they had to raid his compound and drag him away in cuffs and confiscate the millions he made illegally abusing international law.  What a great example of fine business practices.

It jsut makes my brain hurt.  What it comes down to is what others have said.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees.  But one way or another they need to cover costs or the y lose money and are out of the business of making consoles.  

There are just many different factors to something like this. It eventually became something like that when I tried to cover what I thought were important factors. You still don't explain why Microsoft can't give a free online component as part of Live and leave everything else on Gold. I used Megaupload as an example of its functionality. Wow, really why would I care what people used it for? People use Live to hack into other people's accounts and steal a ton of money, ever heard of the phishing scams? And many people also used Megaupload for legitimate reasons, same with Live. If you read the whole thing, you would see I have valid reasons on why Microsoft should enable free online to its customers. They don't need to charge for decent online gaming capabilities in order to cover the costs. I also pointed being the mindset of fully profit will not allow them to be in the mindset of innovation and sadly this is where I see Microsoft and many companies heading. Only few companies are both innovating and making real profit at the same time.

"They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees." This is what is wrong with many businesses. They can only think of adding unneccessary costs instead of real ways of moving forward. Another point I covered. If something was free to me since the beginning it should always be free is not an illogical concept at all. In fact, just recently SOPA wanted to censor the Internet and pretty much everyone was in an uproar because of it. Why? Because the Internet was ours to begin with and the government was trying to take that from us.

"If you don't like it, don't buy it." This mentality of Sony and Nintendo are one thing and Microsoft is another seems harmless on the surface. Choose one based on your preferences. However, I argued that we are already speculating Sony and Nintendo might be taking up similar policies as Microsoft. If so, this indicates to me we will see less and less innovations as they put their focus on extracting every penny from us instead. We need to make it clear to them we want innovations not petty charges on something like online gaming. If they innovate, they will more than enough be able to cover costs of their services.



Sevengen said:
you probably shouldn't have done it the first time, seeing how Microsoft is still going to charge for a service they provide and millions of people who see the value in it are still going to pay. myself included. maybe next time you can write a couple chapters about why Netflix should be free. cuz you know.. it should be right? I mean who are they to charge people for renting movies when you can the same ones free at the library.

Wow. If millions of people see value in it, it is more than enough to keep it going right? Millions of people loved black labor in the form of slavery. So I guess we should have kept supporting slavery correct? Do you really think I thought Netflix and library rentals were COMPARABLE services? Really, thanks for taking things out of context and I specifically said not to.