pitzy272 said:
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Yep. It was typed for no reason at all. I doubt anyone will ever read even half of those 'paragraphs'
pitzy272 said:
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Yep. It was typed for no reason at all. I doubt anyone will ever read even half of those 'paragraphs'
| nightsurge said: Such a completely flawed counter post that in no way whatsoever deserving of /thread. I won't even begin to disuss why the comparison to Facebook or Google is incredibly ridiculous. You want to know why Steam, Sony, and Nintendo don't charge for their services? (1) Because they make the GAME DEVELOPERS front a lot of the cost of bandwidth and host the servers, while Microsoft fronts the bill for every multiplayer game on Xbox Live (except for dedicated server games, but MS will still host all the matchmaking services and trueskill). Do you have any idea how much it costs to host millions of users on an online service? It is not cheap, and most certainly not free. Why else do you think Sony all the sudden started trying to charge $50 a year for what boils down to a discount package? To make up the costs of all their bandwidth, data management, etc. Why else do you think the Playstation product division remained so negative in profits for so long even after becoming profitable on hardware? (2) Steam doesn't even host multiplayer for anything other than Valve's own games. Everything else is the game developers themselves. And then we have the Wii which is a broken and unorganized service that is more of a hassle than a benefit when it comes to playing online. This is why most multiplatform games have better multiplayer on Xbox Live (which is proven very easily by the majority of experiences from users that have both PSN and Xbox Live and any unbiased comparison). Because MS hosts the servers and have all the years of experience in getting the best results and they also integrate everything so well across all games. But I am getting ahead of myself by going that route. Yes, perhaps they could offer just basic, dumbed down multiplayer for free to silver, with no voice chat, cross game chat, no friend invites/messages, or any other bonuses to Gold, but what would be the point? The best things about Xbox Live is playing with friends, talking trash or making new friends, or simply chatting with your friends regardess of what you are doing on Xbox Live via Party/Private Chat. The fact of the matter is, these are services provided by companies that involve a very considerable cost in multiple ways. That cost has to be paid for somehow, either by the game developers, the main company providing the service, or it can be passed on to the customers using the service in return for all the value and better quality that the service provides. Personally, and I know I am very far from alone here, I don't mind paying a small fee ($35-50 a year) for services that offer a much higher level of quality and value than other alternatives. |
1. Do you have a link for Steam charging developers for bandwidth? The charge for developers, as far as I can tell, is simply taking royalty charges in the same way any publisher does or any console manufacturer charges royalties for having games on their system. In fact, the low cost for developers to bring a game to Steam is why there are so many Indie titles available on the service.
2. My understanding is that any game developer that uses steamworks for a title essentially gets the same service and support X-box Live provides including the matchmaking, acheivements, community features, updates/patching and DLC. In fact, the DLC issue is why EA games have an issue with Steam because they wanted to host and sell all their DLC through Origin instead of Steam. This is ignoring the cloud storage of 100mb per game they provide for saved game backups. All of this is free for developers and for users.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/01/30/valve_releases_steamworks_toolset_for_free/1
So the question really should be, if Valve can manage to offer similar services to X-box Live and PSN, what are MS and Sony doing wrong that they either have to charge customers to play or lose a lot of money?
youarebadatgames said:
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Steam does all that for free though doesn't it?
| fastyxx said: 4. Steam is a store and a store only. The price for their bandwidth is included in the pricing of their games. Simiar to Live, their social features, like friends and acheievements, are set up only so that you feel almost obligated to use their retail portal so that they can be a dominant retailer of digital downloads. You are paying per download in the price of each game versus a subscription fee. |
You must have used Steam in 2005...
Welcome to 2012, where Steam isn't only a Store but a full blown online service with all the services (plus a few extra) offered by X-box Live and PSN:
http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php
You can add to that list cloud storage for storing saved games (up to 100mb per game)
Scoobes said:
You must have used Steam in 2005... Welcome to 2012, where Steam isn't only a Store but a full blown online service with all the services (plus a few extra) offered by X-box Live and PSN: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php You can add to that list cloud storage for storing saved games (up to 100mb per game) |
You're missing the point. The only reason they HAVE those features is so that you'll buy all your product in the one integrated space. They make their money by being your store - the community and social functions and cloud storage and the like are solely there so that you'll buy all your digital downloads in one place. Versus a Live, where it serves that purposebut also must entice you to buy the console and the accessories and invest in the brand enough to buy the next console, and to tie you to bing and windows, etc. etc. It goes so far beyond just the simpler goals of Steam.
TheKoreanGuy said:
Sorry, but the people here seem to think I'm just talking like I have no clue unless I thoroughly express my opinion. There may be other various factors to this debate but hopefully I covered a lot of it. I probably won't ever do that again haha |
I'm not going through all that stuff point-by-point, but you really don't see the big picture. It's just so illogical. "Something was free for me for years, therefore it should always be free, no matter how much the product/world/costs/circumstances change." One of the biggest logical traps ever.
I mean, you're using megaupload as an example. A pirate site. That was raided and the guy who ran it was wanted in like 50 countries, and they had to raid his compound and drag him away in cuffs and confiscate the millions he made illegally abusing international law. What a great example of fine business practices.
It jsut makes my brain hurt. What it comes down to is what others have said. If you don't like it, don't buy it. They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees. But one way or another they need to cover costs or the y lose money and are out of the business of making consoles.
And you felt the need to complain about this because? What was even the point of this article?
fastyxx said:
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Yes, because MS gets no money from the millions of map packs, DLC, and full blown games that are sold on Live, and that's ignoring the extra revenue streams from advertising. Revenue from digital sales on Live is rapidly increasing to a point where Live is likely sustainable without the subscription (or soon will be). Even MMOs are rapidly going the free-to-play route and getting money through micro-transactions, optional purchases etc. and oddly enough many are finding that revenue has actually increased due to an increase in users.
As for the second part of your post, I'm not sure what the differing goals of Live and Steam have to do with running costs when they both have similar features.
fastyxx said:
I'm not going through all that stuff point-by-point, but you really don't see the big picture. It's just so illogical. "Something was free for me for years, therefore it should always be free, no matter how much the product/world/costs/circumstances change." One of the biggest logical traps ever. I mean, you're using megaupload as an example. A pirate site. That was raided and the guy who ran it was wanted in like 50 countries, and they had to raid his compound and drag him away in cuffs and confiscate the millions he made illegally abusing international law. What a great example of fine business practices. It jsut makes my brain hurt. What it comes down to is what others have said. If you don't like it, don't buy it. They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees. But one way or another they need to cover costs or the y lose money and are out of the business of making consoles. |
There are just many different factors to something like this. It eventually became something like that when I tried to cover what I thought were important factors. You still don't explain why Microsoft can't give a free online component as part of Live and leave everything else on Gold. I used Megaupload as an example of its functionality. Wow, really why would I care what people used it for? People use Live to hack into other people's accounts and steal a ton of money, ever heard of the phishing scams? And many people also used Megaupload for legitimate reasons, same with Live. If you read the whole thing, you would see I have valid reasons on why Microsoft should enable free online to its customers. They don't need to charge for decent online gaming capabilities in order to cover the costs. I also pointed being the mindset of fully profit will not allow them to be in the mindset of innovation and sadly this is where I see Microsoft and many companies heading. Only few companies are both innovating and making real profit at the same time.
"They could either charge $5 more per game in licensing or $100 more console or have Live fees." This is what is wrong with many businesses. They can only think of adding unneccessary costs instead of real ways of moving forward. Another point I covered. If something was free to me since the beginning it should always be free is not an illogical concept at all. In fact, just recently SOPA wanted to censor the Internet and pretty much everyone was in an uproar because of it. Why? Because the Internet was ours to begin with and the government was trying to take that from us.
"If you don't like it, don't buy it." This mentality of Sony and Nintendo are one thing and Microsoft is another seems harmless on the surface. Choose one based on your preferences. However, I argued that we are already speculating Sony and Nintendo might be taking up similar policies as Microsoft. If so, this indicates to me we will see less and less innovations as they put their focus on extracting every penny from us instead. We need to make it clear to them we want innovations not petty charges on something like online gaming. If they innovate, they will more than enough be able to cover costs of their services.
| Sevengen said: you probably shouldn't have done it the first time, seeing how Microsoft is still going to charge for a service they provide and millions of people who see the value in it are still going to pay. myself included. maybe next time you can write a couple chapters about why Netflix should be free. cuz you know.. it should be right? I mean who are they to charge people for renting movies when you can the same ones free at the library. |
Wow. If millions of people see value in it, it is more than enough to keep it going right? Millions of people loved black labor in the form of slavery. So I guess we should have kept supporting slavery correct? Do you really think I thought Netflix and library rentals were COMPARABLE services? Really, thanks for taking things out of context and I specifically said not to.