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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo officially announces Nintendo Network!!!

Play4Fun on 28 January 2012
o_O.Q said:
Play4Fun said:


Okay, Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sony adding analogs to the PS one controller.

Same with rumble and motion controls.

Happy?

i never mentioned motion or rumble so i don't see why you brought them up but whatever

its ironic though how some of you use the natural progression argument in nintendo's favour repeatedly but for anyone else implementation of a feature suddenly becomes copying

Two analog sticks instead of one was the natural progression (two thumbs!) from Nintendo's N64 controller. Rumble integrated into the controller was a natural progression from N64 controller rumble add-on.

Like I said in my previous post, nothing wrong with Sony taking and improving on what Nintendo did.



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vaio on 28 January 2012
happydolphin said:
Play4Fun said:
o_O.Q said:

that doesn't mean that that was what made them implement it all you're doing is making an assumption... don't see how recognising that makes me defensive but whatever 


Okay, Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sony adding analogs to the PS one controller.

Same with rumble and motion controls.

Happy?

Yeah, that sounds about right. And Nintendo copied the vectrex, that's how they got Mario 64's awesome controls, they followed the revolutionary lead of whoever made that wonder of a console.

 

Vectrex controller background information: please read.

@o_O.Q: Do you realize the vecrex controller wasn't a thumbstick? It was held with 3 fingers, and wasn't near like Nintendo's design, which also featured the Z trigger. The N64 controller was made to be held with your thumb, while your index held the trigger button. That's a main part of the innovation. It also had grip for your thumb, a concept that wasn't even relevant for vectrex controller since it isn't a thumbstick. The vectrex controller was more akin to a mini arcade joystick. Let me show you why this is not nearly as revolutionary as the N64 analog stick.

The real innovation of the vectrex at the time was the analog input that came for the 360 degrees direction of the stick, but I would be hard pressed to believe it had pressure sensitivity like the 64 controller did (i.e. not just capting, but even interpreting the magnitude of the vector of the position of the joystick relative to center), whereby you could get mario to tiptoe. If it can, I stand corrected. But you need to provide the proof. The article says it was designed after arcade sticks, meaning it has full analog along the directions, but didn't consider the size of the vector (sensitivity). If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow ;) For now, from the video below, this is what the vectrex controls look like, I don't see pressure sensitivity. And the ships were advancing by the press of a button, not with the analog pushed forward like you would imagine. So the space game for example is only considering the direction, not the magnitude of the vector in that direction. Compare that to Mario's pressure sensitive controls in the Z axis. There's no match there. :)

@PS1 sales: That is 100% irrelevant. It isn't the sales of the console per se that matter, it's the quality of controls for a game like Mario 64 that matter, and the enjoyment it gave to so many people. Since you're asking us, we make the rules, and that's the benchmark. :P In that regard, the N64 destroyed the PS1. Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was. Prove me the opposite (that a large portion of games made extensive use of the dual analog) with a nice fancy list. Thanks.

If you knew anything about vectrex or even just played one you would know that the vextrex one is a joystick and the N64 controller is a pad, thats a big difference.

 

Edit: sorry quted the wrong person it was meant for o_O.Q



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

o_O.Q on 28 January 2012
happydolphin said:
Play4Fun said:
o_O.Q said:

that doesn't mean that that was what made them implement it all you're doing is making an assumption... don't see how recognising that makes me defensive but whatever 


Okay, Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sony adding analogs to the PS one controller.

Same with rumble and motion controls.

Happy?

Yeah, that sounds about right. And Nintendo copied the vectrex, that's how they got Mario 64's awesome controls, they followed the revolutionary lead of whoever made that wonder of a console.

 

Vectrex controller background information: please read.

@o_O.Q: Do you realize the vecrex controller wasn't a thumbstick? It was held with 3 fingers, and wasn't near like Nintendo's design, which also featured the Z trigger. The N64 controller was made to be held with your thumb, while your index held the trigger button. That's a main part of the innovation. It also had grip for your thumb, a concept that wasn't even relevant for vectrex controller since it isn't a thumbstick. The vectrex controller was more akin to a mini arcade joystick. Let me show you why this is not nearly as revolutionary as the N64 analog stick.

The real innovation of the vectrex at the time was the analog input that came for the 360 degrees direction of the stick, but I would be hard pressed to believe it had pressure sensitivity like the 64 controller did (i.e. not just capting, but even interpreting the magnitude of the vector of the position of the joystick relative to center), whereby you could get mario to tiptoe. If it can, I stand corrected. But you need to provide the proof. The article says it was designed after arcade sticks, meaning it has full analog along the directions, but didn't consider the size of the vector (sensitivity). If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow ;) For now, from the video below, this is what the vectrex controls look like, I don't see pressure sensitivity. And the ships were advancing by the press of a button, not with the analog pushed forward like you would imagine. So the space game for example is only considering the direction, not the magnitude of the vector in that direction. Compare that to Mario's pressure sensitive controls in the Z axis. There's no match there. :)

@PS1 sales: That is 100% irrelevant. It isn't the sales of the console per se that matter, it's the quality of controls for a game like Mario 64 that matter, and the enjoyment it gave to so many people. Since you're asking us, we make the rules, and that's the benchmark. :P In that regard, the N64 destroyed the PS1. Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was. Prove me the opposite (that a large portion of games made extensive use of the dual analog) with a nice fancy list. Thanks.

to your first part i'm not really sure what all the text is suppposed to prove i never argued about which was more ergonomic, had better design etc all i stated is that analog thumbsticks is not something that nintendo brought to gaming

yes i would agree that they improved upon it and the controller in general but the same could be said of microsoft and sony, my main gripe is that i see many nintendo fans praising nintendo for their work with analog sticks when really for me they have only been implementing their own take on them like microsoft and sony after implementation by other gaming companies that aren't mentioned in this regard at all

 

to your second part about relevance 

"Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was."

i didn't realise that the n64 had dual analogs...

but anyway if your point is that the ps1 used them poorly well thats your opinion i can think of many games that imo used them well like ape escape, spyro, resident evil, metal gear solid etc

secondly i made the point i made because many nintendo fans say that nintendo made motion gaming relevant through the sales of the wii ( even though it has existed before now in other forms ) but then when it comes to analog sticks even though the playstation sold more than the n64 that argument changes



vaio on 28 January 2012
o_O.Q said:
happydolphin said:
Play4Fun said:
o_O.Q said:

that doesn't mean that that was what made them implement it all you're doing is making an assumption... don't see how recognising that makes me defensive but whatever 


Okay, Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sony adding analogs to the PS one controller.

Same with rumble and motion controls.

Happy?

Yeah, that sounds about right. And Nintendo copied the vectrex, that's how they got Mario 64's awesome controls, they followed the revolutionary lead of whoever made that wonder of a console.

 

Vectrex controller background information: please read.

@o_O.Q: Do you realize the vecrex controller wasn't a thumbstick? It was held with 3 fingers, and wasn't near like Nintendo's design, which also featured the Z trigger. The N64 controller was made to be held with your thumb, while your index held the trigger button. That's a main part of the innovation. It also had grip for your thumb, a concept that wasn't even relevant for vectrex controller since it isn't a thumbstick. The vectrex controller was more akin to a mini arcade joystick. Let me show you why this is not nearly as revolutionary as the N64 analog stick.

The real innovation of the vectrex at the time was the analog input that came for the 360 degrees direction of the stick, but I would be hard pressed to believe it had pressure sensitivity like the 64 controller did (i.e. not just capting, but even interpreting the magnitude of the vector of the position of the joystick relative to center), whereby you could get mario to tiptoe. If it can, I stand corrected. But you need to provide the proof. The article says it was designed after arcade sticks, meaning it has full analog along the directions, but didn't consider the size of the vector (sensitivity). If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow ;) For now, from the video below, this is what the vectrex controls look like, I don't see pressure sensitivity. And the ships were advancing by the press of a button, not with the analog pushed forward like you would imagine. So the space game for example is only considering the direction, not the magnitude of the vector in that direction. Compare that to Mario's pressure sensitive controls in the Z axis. There's no match there. :)

@PS1 sales: That is 100% irrelevant. It isn't the sales of the console per se that matter, it's the quality of controls for a game like Mario 64 that matter, and the enjoyment it gave to so many people. Since you're asking us, we make the rules, and that's the benchmark. :P In that regard, the N64 destroyed the PS1. Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was. Prove me the opposite (that a large portion of games made extensive use of the dual analog) with a nice fancy list. Thanks.

to your first part i'm not really sure what all the text is suppposed to prove i never argued about which was more ergonomic, had better design etc all i stated is that analog thumbsticks is not something that nintendo brought to gaming

yes i would agree that they improved upon it and the controller in general but the same could be said of microsoft and sony, my main gripe is that i see many nintendo fans praising nintendo for their work with analog sticks when really for me they have only been implementing their own take on them like microsoft and sony after implementation by other gaming companies that aren't mentioned in this regard at all

 

to your second part about relevance 

"Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was."

i didn't realise that the n64 had dual analogs...

but anyway if your point is that the ps1 used them poorly well thats your opinion i can think of many games that imo used them well like ape escape, spyro, resident evil, metal gear solid etc

secondly i made the point i made because many nintendo fans say that nintendo made motion gaming relevant through the sales of the wii ( even though it has existed before now in other forms ) but then when it comes to analog sticks even though the playstation sold more than the n64 that argument changes


If you knew anything about vectrex or even just played one you would know that the vextrex one is a joystick!



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

o_O.Q on 28 January 2012
vaio said:
o_O.Q said:
happydolphin said:
Play4Fun said:
o_O.Q said:

that doesn't mean that that was what made them implement it all you're doing is making an assumption... don't see how recognising that makes me defensive but whatever 


Okay, Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sony adding analogs to the PS one controller.

Same with rumble and motion controls.

Happy?

Yeah, that sounds about right. And Nintendo copied the vectrex, that's how they got Mario 64's awesome controls, they followed the revolutionary lead of whoever made that wonder of a console.

 

Vectrex controller background information: please read.

@o_O.Q: Do you realize the vecrex controller wasn't a thumbstick? It was held with 3 fingers, and wasn't near like Nintendo's design, which also featured the Z trigger. The N64 controller was made to be held with your thumb, while your index held the trigger button. That's a main part of the innovation. It also had grip for your thumb, a concept that wasn't even relevant for vectrex controller since it isn't a thumbstick. The vectrex controller was more akin to a mini arcade joystick. Let me show you why this is not nearly as revolutionary as the N64 analog stick.

The real innovation of the vectrex at the time was the analog input that came for the 360 degrees direction of the stick, but I would be hard pressed to believe it had pressure sensitivity like the 64 controller did (i.e. not just capting, but even interpreting the magnitude of the vector of the position of the joystick relative to center), whereby you could get mario to tiptoe. If it can, I stand corrected. But you need to provide the proof. The article says it was designed after arcade sticks, meaning it has full analog along the directions, but didn't consider the size of the vector (sensitivity). If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow ;) For now, from the video below, this is what the vectrex controls look like, I don't see pressure sensitivity. And the ships were advancing by the press of a button, not with the analog pushed forward like you would imagine. So the space game for example is only considering the direction, not the magnitude of the vector in that direction. Compare that to Mario's pressure sensitive controls in the Z axis. There's no match there. :)

@PS1 sales: That is 100% irrelevant. It isn't the sales of the console per se that matter, it's the quality of controls for a game like Mario 64 that matter, and the enjoyment it gave to so many people. Since you're asking us, we make the rules, and that's the benchmark. :P In that regard, the N64 destroyed the PS1. Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was. Prove me the opposite (that a large portion of games made extensive use of the dual analog) with a nice fancy list. Thanks.

to your first part i'm not really sure what all the text is suppposed to prove i never argued about which was more ergonomic, had better design etc all i stated is that analog thumbsticks is not something that nintendo brought to gaming

yes i would agree that they improved upon it and the controller in general but the same could be said of microsoft and sony, my main gripe is that i see many nintendo fans praising nintendo for their work with analog sticks when really for me they have only been implementing their own take on them like microsoft and sony after implementation by other gaming companies that aren't mentioned in this regard at all

 

to your second part about relevance 

"Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was."

i didn't realise that the n64 had dual analogs...

but anyway if your point is that the ps1 used them poorly well thats your opinion i can think of many games that imo used them well like ape escape, spyro, resident evil, metal gear solid etc

secondly i made the point i made because many nintendo fans say that nintendo made motion gaming relevant through the sales of the wii ( even though it has existed before now in other forms ) but then when it comes to analog sticks even though the playstation sold more than the n64 that argument changes


If you knew anything about vectrex or even just played one you would know that the vextrex one is a joystick!

well we can call it different names doesn't really matter its a stick for control, smaller than average "joysticks" and its inset into a controller, thats close enough to a thumbstick by my reasoning



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scottie on 28 January 2012

Ugh, giving into DLC is bad for gamers. Now we'll just pay twice as much to get exactly the same content. And the Wii already had fully downloadable games via Wiiware (and I think the DSi did also). Both the Wii and DS phat already offered online play.

So this is just an announcement that the price of Wii U and 3DS games have increased :(



VGKing on 28 January 2012

They didn't say it would offer entire downloadable games. They said they it could.
If you think it will offer that anywhere near launch you're gonna be disappointed.



vaio on 28 January 2012
o_O.Q said:
vaio said:


If you knew anything about vectrex or even just played one you would know that the vextrex one is a joystick!

well we can call it different names doesn't really matter its a stick for control, smaller than average "joysticks" and its inset into a controller, thats close enough to a thumbstick by my reasoning

its a big difference between a joystick and a joypad.

If you wanbted to play the games fully and be able to use all 4 buttons you had to use it as a joystick.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

UltimateUnknown on 28 January 2012
VGKing said:
They didn't say it would offer entire downloadable games. They said they it could.
If you think it will offer that anywhere near launch you're gonna be disappointed.

No ones expecting day and date downloadable release with retail release this gen. But at this point we all expect most major releases to come out digitally after the retail release, and that will be made possible through the nintendo network.



 

happydolphin on 28 January 2012
o_O.Q said:

to your first part i'm not really sure what all the text is suppposed to prove i never argued about which was more ergonomic, had better design etc all i stated is that analog thumbsticks is not something that nintendo brought to gaming

@bold. Yes, analog thumbsticks are something Nintendo brought to gaming. Simple fact. Explanation: The vectrex was not a thumbstick, and it did not have pressure sensitivity. It was analog, but not in the depth axis (again if I'm wrong here I need to be corrected). Ultimately, it was incredibly limited in comparison to the 64's input and ergonomics. Compare that to what I'll describe below.

yes i would agree that they improved upon it and the controller in general but the same could be said of microsoft and sony, my main gripe is that i see many nintendo fans praising nintendo for their work with analog sticks when really for me they have only been implementing their own take on them like microsoft and sony after implementation by other gaming companies that aren't mentioned in this regard at all

@bold. No, they didn't improve on it. They revolutionized it. Nobody thought of that before, a thumbstick, and if they did, they didn't spend the R&D to tweak and test it, then to R&D software to best fit it. That is ALL Nintendo's money spent and legwork. Sony copied. Can you get that? It's not a minor improvement here, Nintendo invested significant R&D, Sony copied with less significant investment. When will you understand this simple concept? 2 elements to consider in the innovation:

1) Thumb stick. Frees up the index, and this design goes hand in hand with the trigger button innovation, all with one hand while the other focuses on 4 buttons. Before that, it could not be achieved on a basic controller, vaio also explained that to you.

Basically, they took this:

And put it into this:

   

This is the innovation. If you brush it off as ergonomics and simple design, you FAIL epically to realize that we are speaking about a CONTROLLER DESIGN. The fact that an extra button is available, and that the joystick can be controlled simply by your thumb and with immense precision is MEGATON for a controller innovation. Compare that to the vectrex... the change from Vectrex controller to 64 controller is is not a simple improvement, it is a revolution.

2) Pressure sensitivity. This did not exist on Vectrex in the depth axis, I don't think so. It's a huge innovation, and the games made excellent use of this. I explain this properly in my first post.

to your second part about relevance 

"Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was."

i didn't realise that the n64 had dual analogs...

@bold. You're supposed to understand this as saying:

"Realize the PS1 barely made use of the dual analog, it wasn't designed with that in mind. The N64 was designed with the analog stick (and trigger button it goes without saying) from the ground up."

Stop wasting my time.  If you can't understand such simple things, just get out. You have no idea how much you aggravate. People take time to research and write elaborate posts so you can answer with stupidity. That's unacceptable.

but anyway if your point is that the ps1 used them poorly well thats your opinion i can think of many games that imo used them well like ape escape, spyro, resident evil, metal gear solid etc

As far as I remember, these were used as supplements for the D-pad, and within the games mentioned did not offer pressure sensitivity (though the hardware provided that, no or very few games actually used it). Even if they did, a handful of games is nothing to be proud of. This is a VERY weak argument on your part. Excuse me.

secondly i made the point i made because many nintendo fans say that nintendo made motion gaming relevant through the sales of the wii ( even though it has existed before now in other forms ) but then when it comes to analog sticks even though the playstation sold more than the n64 that argument changes

@bold. You're making the point because you can't understand simple facts when they are presented to you. I explained to you that analog controls were not part of the original design of the PS1, so using its sales is a very poor argument, even if you wished you could use it, when you do, it makes you sound very ignorant. See my counter-point just above this one to understand why. The Wii actually held the Motion Controls torch for 3 full years this gen. Not only did sales vindicate the business decision (Sony did not make that decision at PS launch/inception), but it also made great use of the technologies in its own games, and made it affordable. They were the first to achieve all that. They also achieved that with the N64 to a lesser extent, Sony came 2nd.