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Forums - General Discussion - Ethics holds science back

 

Do you believe ethics slows scientific progress?

Yes 44 62.86%
 
No 17 24.29%
 
Maybe 7 10.00%
 
Total:68
sethnintendo said:
kain_kusanagi said:
sethnintendo said:
kain_kusanagi said:
sethnintendo said:
kain_kusanagi said:


Would you really want your a cure if it meant innocent human life had to suffer or be destroyed for no other purpose but for "science"?


Sounds better than letting it be destroyed for profit, religion, war, etc...

 

 

What a cynical outlook on life you have.


Was just making a point that human life will be destroyed for many reasons.  Reread the post you just quoted I added more.  To believe one action is right or wrong has prevented/slowed down scientific knowledge for humans.

Galileo lived in the 16th century. Our secular society today doesn't even remotely resemble the church ruled world of his era.

You make it sound like ethics are arbitrary and meaningless. That's not true. Ethics are universal. I want you to reread what I wrote, becuase you seem to have focused only on my last statement. I want you to instead focus on my first statement.

"Ethics don't hold science back, they hold it accountable. The ends do not justify the means. Dr. Josef Mengele was a monster that we should hold in absolute contempt, not glorify. His "science" may have yielded results, but the cost was too high. That any good came from his atrocities is not proof that we should forgo our humanity for the possible advancement of science.

Stem cell research is not being held back by ethics or religion. The frozen embrios were never made illigal. In fact they were the only legal way to harvest embrionic stem cells. People don't want to destroy life even to save life. That's why we only harvest donor organs from those who's lives can't be saved. Because it's ethically wrong to create life just to destroy it, people were against embrionic stem cell harvesting. Nobody wanted to see fetus factories, and for good reason. Because of that stem cell research has switched to adult stem cells which research suggests may be better in the long run. In this case ethics' effect on science was both positive and effective.

Would you really want a cure if it meant innocent human life had to suffer or be destroyed for no other purpose but for "science"?"


You points are valid and I agree pretty much all of what you are saying.  However, the world isn't a pretty place and even with "high" ethical standards, USA has done some very questionable scientific research.  Basically, I am just going to point out even within a modern society many people are oblivious of what their government is doing behind closed doors.

http://www.naturalnews.com/019189.html

Ok, I'm going to respond because you've gotten back on track.

I am very much aware of the disgusting human experimentations and deplorable eugenics in the USA's history. I find it disgusting and ethically wrong. The USA is far from the only free country with a less then sterling ethical history. If anything it proves that science can get out of hand when society isn't watching. In the last 50 years civil rights have advanced and people are much more informed and active about things. We should strive for better ethics oversight not less.

I've pretty much said my peace so I think I'll go back to talking about video games now.



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sethnintendo said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
sethnintendo said:

I just wanted to make this thread because I thought it would be a good thread for discussion.  I am mainly referring to the huge scientific explosion that happened during the Nazi regime for my argument.  While I disagree with almost everything regarding Nazi ideology, it is pretty obvious that with little moral value towards their research subjects that they were able to make many scientific discoveries.  The Nazi were also highly advanced in aeronautics, rocketry, remote controlled missiles, etc... 

Stem cell research is also a good example of how people's ethics are holding back research.  Now the USA is behind most major countries due to Bush not allowing federal aid for stem cell research.  Sure, private companies could do the research but those companies are behind foreign companies now without the help of government research money.  What are your thoughts about this subject matter?


I'm gonna say yes, ethics do hold science back. But I do find it pretty inconsiderate to mention the Nazi experiments as an example of ethics holding science back. And what the hell does the bolded have to do with this discussion? Are you saying that Nazis happened to be ahead technologically just because they bended ethics? That makes no sense at all.

Humans should never (except certain volunteers) be used for experimenting.

Massive slave labor for the V1 and V2 rocket progams.  Without the slave labor the projects probably wouldn't have even gotten close to even using the V2.  Do you know of any Allies that used this technology during WW2?

Do you know any Nazis who dropped atomic bombs?



Of course ethics holds Science back. The whole point of an ethical code is to prevent us from cutting open live humans and observing their inner workings. If that holds back Science a few years, I don't see the big deal.



Read my blog. it exists. No really, it does. I kid you not.

Just wait 'till they begin experimenting on you involuntarily because you had no qualms with little to no ethics in regards to science.

You do realize that scientists have murdered many people against their will in the name of their cause, right? The Nazi's weren't advanced in science because of their lack of ethics, but their funding of sciences. Comparatively, Japan killed so many people and gave little regard for science, but had much less progress.

You say that the US is behind on stem cell research, yet you know so little about the actual research to know that Bush never banned funding on said research, but only on embryonic stem cell research. Of which, the vast, and I mean vast amount of breakthroughs have been with non-embryonic research. Look it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell_research#Research_patents

There has to be some restraint in regards to involuntarily preforming science on others in the name of their own benefit. Such things have happened very often in time past, which is a very scary thing that we should not repeat.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Do you know any Nazis who dropped atomic bombs?


That one backfired on them because they booted out top Jewish scientist.  If they weren't so antisemitic then they would probably had the atomic bomb first.  You do remember where Einstein came from?  Also, Wernher Von Braun helped USA rocket research more than anything.



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Funny how science is already assumed to be good. Science has brought us much technological advancement in many facets of life like healthcare or entertainment (videogames for one, heh). But can we at least pause for a second on how this has actually improved our lives?

Are people born now somehow living better lives than our ancestors of recent and long past? Ethics may very well hold science back, but how much is the lack of science really holding back our happiness?

Music is not better today, just different (is Mozart or Jimmi Hendrix's music somehow how less capable than the big production bands of today like a Radiohead or a Nine Inch Nails, or some crazy IDM band?). Video games aren't necessarily better (are 3d games somehow superior to 2d games?). I could go on like this about every technological advancement in every facet of the Arts.

Are my parents happier today simple because they are living longer lives due to science? We may have been more vulnerable to more ailments in the past, but being healthy doesn't equate to happiness, it is only a means to an ends, not an ends in itself.



mrstickball said:


There has to be some restraint in regards to involuntarily preforming science on others in the name of their own benefit. Such things have happened very often in time past, which is a very scary thing that we should not repeat.


Sad thing that it will continue to happen till humans no longer exist.  I view the prescription drug industry in about the same view as scientist destroying life for research.  I have a very negative view towards the prescription drug industry though.  I should have stated embryonic but my main point with that was they were leftover embryos from in vitro fertilization.  They were going to be thrown in the trash so theoretically they were trash.  How is saving trash, saving a life?



robzo100 said:
Funny how science is already assumed to be good. Science has brought us much technological advancement in many facets of life like healthcare or entertainment (videogames for one, heh). But can we at least pause for a second on how this has actually improved our lives?

Are my parents happier today simple because they are living longer lives due to science? We may have been more vulnerable to more ailments in the past, but being healthy doesn't equate to happiness, it is only a means to an ends, not an ends in itself.


Could easily be argued that science has led humans to be even less healthy.  I could go on about processed foods, high fructose corn syrup, prescription pills, and many other "improvements" that have actually led to a decrease in health.



sethnintendo said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Do you know any Nazis who dropped atomic bombs?


That one backfired on them because they booted out top Jewish scientist.  If they weren't so antisemitic then they would probably had the atomic bomb first.  You do remember where Einstein came from?  Also, Wernher Von Braun helped USA rocket research more than anything.


Yes, I'm aware of Einstein's origin. I was just pointing out the irrelevance of that discussion. Using people as slaves nowadays wouldn't help science one bit.



sethnintendo said:
mrstickball said:


There has to be some restraint in regards to involuntarily preforming science on others in the name of their own benefit. Such things have happened very often in time past, which is a very scary thing that we should not repeat.


Sad thing that it will continue to happen till humans no longer exist.  I view the prescription drug industry in about the same view as scientist destroying life for research.  I have a very negative view towards the prescription drug industry though.  I should have stated embryonic but my main point with that was they were leftover embryos from in vitro fertilization.  They were going to be thrown in the trash so theoretically they were trash.  How is saving trash, saving a life?

I never said that using leftover embryos would of violated ethical concerns.

What I am talking about are experiments like the Nazis leaving a hundred newborns in a room and performing experiements to see how they responded to no stimulation - causing many of them to die.

Or Japan's Unit 731. Or The Aversion Project. Or the North Korean Cabbage Experiment. Or the Soviet's Poison Gulag. Or the Tuskeegee Syphillis Project. And so on.

Those studies may of had some slight benefit, but resulted in the murder of many. I would contend that under restrained scientific study, those people could have provided valuable services and businesses, which could of augmented the economy. In doing such, those monies and additional people could then be routed to become scientists themselves, or at least monies used to fund other scientific projects. Instead, they lay dead or dying because someone wanted to see if a bullet to the head was fatal or not, or if genital mutiliation actually cured homosexuality.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.