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Forums - General Discussion - Should guns be outlawed in America?

Seece said:
Don't think it wouldn't solve much, the ones that use them irresponsibly would just move onto Knives ect


The murder rate might decrease slightly then considering it would be more difficult to kill someone.  I take 311's stance on guns which I believe guns are for pussies (they have a song on their 311/311 album titled that just to let you know).  I don't mind hunting rifles and shotguns but I have a big problem with assault rifles, SMGs, and handguns considering that is a weapon designed specifically for killing people.  Shotgun and rifles are harder to conceal unless you saw them.  I would never own a gun because I would probably end up killing someone considering I tend to run into a decent amount of stupid people.



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sethnintendo said:

I am going to just step in briefly for this conversation considering I graduated with a wildlife and fisheries management degree.  Do you have any idea how wrong your statement is when you actually take a step back and look at it?  Do you understand why deer populations go out of control?  The reason why is because there was a mass slaughter of wolves or any other predator that humans were scared of in the USA.  If you take out the predators then of course you will have their prey population explode until they use up the resources and die off to sustainable levels.  You act like the only way to control wildlife population is through hunting....  While this can be a decent way for wildlife agency to make money, hunting is by no means a good way of population control.  Just come down to Texas and try and get the feral hog population in control with human methods (guns, traps, poison, etc..).  You know what?  You can't because they have been trying for a very long time with no success.  You act like a person who has no clue about the food chain which is elementary science.  I am 99.9% sure that wildlife populations didn't evolve depending on humans to keep their populations in check. 

Ok, so let's raise the wolves back from the undead and let them eat all the deer.  Problem solved.  Or let's somehow inject them with something that makes them more fertile, or breed our own wolves and release them into the wild.  Does that solve your problem?  Because you can't undo what's been done.  So what is your master plan to fix it, since you have a degree in the field?  And why haven't you implemented it yet?

And so you agree that for example, deer, will explode in population until they use up all the natural resources and start dying off... aka, our resources, and other animals' resources, thus we resort to hunting. 

So you're saying that despite all of the feral hogs that humans kill with guns, traps, and poisons, there is still a problem, right?  So would that problem not be EVEN WORSE with NO human intervention at all?  Sounds like it would be.  Wouldn't humans have to be the ones to introduce their natural predator, whatever that may be?  Wouldn't that have consequences? 

I know how the food chain works.  We are at the top. We do what is necessary to keep our way of advanced life sustainable.

Obviously humans didn't dictate 99.9% of wildlife populations.  Humans haven't even been around that long.  Not to mention nature has its own animals become extinct despite our efforts.  Just look at pandas.  Those dumb animals don't even want to procreate anymore, thus they should be extinct.  But humans intervene and show them panda porn (no joke) just to make it work so we can keep looking at fluffy pandas.  Is this wrong?  Should we just let them go extinct?  It's clearly a species that should be dead.  But they look cute, so we do our best human intervention to keep them alive.

But guess what, there are 7 billion people on this planet now.  7 billion humans. Who need food.  And in some places, have overgrown their natural resources and spread more than the earth will naturally let them live.  So what do we do?  We figure out ways to fix that, and one of those ways is hunting to prevent certain animals from decimating the landscape that we use to feed these people.  You want to help fix this?  Go tell them to wear some condoms.

Like I said, I live in the real world, not the ideal world.  I think wolves are awesome, and humans shouldn't kill them.  But they did, and now it's done.  And now we have a deer problem.  So how to fix it?  Hunting is one of the ways we use.



BOOM!  FACE KICK!

travis said:
leatherhat said:
Its not about home defense or hunting. Its about making sure the people can always "take care" of the government if they overstep their bounds, which America has apparently forgotten.


Americans are funny. Paranoid and complety freaked out by their government but beeing raped by their corporations and Banks (just think about the subprimes crisis..). Scandinavian countries have strong welfare state and the higher standard of living in the world. Stop beeing afraid of goverment and make it cares about the people it supposes to serve. In the end I would be scared too anyway since United states are barely a democracy ruled by corporate lobbies, mainstream medias and wealthy policians...

 

Sorry for beeing pessimistic and annoying, it's just how the world make me feel at the moment.


which is funny because that was caused by our government in the first place. (fanny and freddy) they pretty much forced with lots of incentives for banks to gives out loans to people who had no business having them because "it was a right to own a home"

 

but yes unlike 90% of what our government does, owning guns is constitutional.



sethnintendo said:
Seece said:
Don't think it wouldn't solve much, the ones that use them irresponsibly would just move onto Knives ect


The murder rate might decrease slightly then considering it would be more difficult to kill someone.  I take 311's stance on guns which I believe guns are for pussies (they have a song on their 311/311 album titled that just to let you know).  I don't mind hunting rifles and shotguns but I have a big problem with assault rifles, SMGs, and handguns considering that is a weapon designed specifically for killing people.  Shotgun and rifles are harder to conceal unless you saw them.  I would never own a gun because I would probably end up killing someone considering I tend to run into a decent amount of stupid people.

UK has a big problem with stabbings, much more so than the US, just because of the gun laws.  People are going to try to kill eachother with whatever they can get.  Yes guns tend to be more fatal.  But I wouldn't take too much advice from 311 in terms of how to fix a country.  I do love that album though, one of my all time favorites. 

I agree that assault rifles aren't really necessary since you're not going to shoot an animal with that, and you don't need something like that to protect yourself, unless you're John McClane.  Handguns however, are used in the vast majority of cases to protect oneself, not to mention, if you're in real danger, and you need protection, you aren't going to be loading up a shotgun for a few minutes, you're going to grab a handgun if you want to live.  But like the statistics say, 93% of crimes are with illegally acquired guns.  Thus, you'd only be banning honest citizens from protecting themselves, and the criminals would still carry concealed weapons.  So that wouldn't fix anything.

And yeah, I guess I would hold off on owning a gun if I were you :p

I do think that in some places it is too easy to obtain a gun.  You should be required to take some classes before getting it in addition to the background check.  But in some states it's too hard to obtain a gun legally, with many taking up to half a year to approve.  No wonder people end up getting them illegally. 



BOOM!  FACE KICK!

Jexy said:

Ok, so let's raise the wolves back from the undead and let them eat all the deer.  Problem solved.  Or let's somehow inject them with something that makes them more fertile, or breed our own wolves and release them into the wild.  Does that solve your problem?  Because you can't undo what's been done.  So what is your master plan to fix it, since you have a degree in the field?  And why haven't you implemented it yet?

And so you agree that for example, deer, will explode in population until they use up all the natural resources and start dying off... aka, our resources, and other animals' resources, thus we resort to hunting. 

So you're saying that despite all of the feral hogs that humans kill with guns, traps, and poisons, there is still a problem, right?  So would that problem not be EVEN WORSE with NO human intervention at all?  Sounds like it would be.  Wouldn't humans have to be the ones to introduce their natural predator, whatever that may be?  Wouldn't that have consequences? 

I know how the food chain works.  We are at the top. We do what is necessary to keep our way of advanced life sustainable.

Obviously humans didn't dictate 99.9% of wildlife populations.  Humans haven't even been around that long.  Not to mention nature has its own animals become extinct despite our efforts.  Just look at pandas.  Those dumb animals don't even want to procreate anymore, thus they should be extinct.  But humans intervene and show them panda porn (no joke) just to make it work so we can keep looking at fluffy pandas.  Is this wrong?  Should we just let them go extinct?  It's clearly a species that should be dead.  But they look cute, so we do our best human intervention to keep them alive.

But guess what, there are 7 billion people on this planet now.  7 billion humans. Who need food.  And in some places, have overgrown their natural resources and spread more than the earth will naturally let them live.  So what do we do?  We figure out ways to fix that, and one of those ways is hunting to prevent certain animals from decimating the landscape that we use to feed these people.  You want to help fix this?  Go tell them to wear some condoms.

Like I said, I live in the real world, not the ideal world.  I think wolves are awesome, and humans shouldn't kill them.  But they did, and now it's done.  And now we have a deer problem.  So how to fix it?  Hunting is one of the ways we use.


We have been releasing the wolves back in the wild in the USA (if you missed the programs about the Yellowstone wolves) in Yellowstone and a few other parts of northern US. 

If by resource you mean the plants in people's yard that the deer eat then yes.  They will eat those plants or as much as they can (they actually create a deer browse line where you can see up to a certain height almost all vegetation eaten in areas of heavy deer population).  I am not against hunting in any way considering that is part of what I went to college for.  Hunting is apart of wildlife I will not deny that but I am just trying to state that one needs to look at the big picture and realize what did we do/are we doing wrong that put us in this situation.  To be frank the handling of wildlife in the USA is piss fucking poor.  While it has improved in some areas it has a far long way to go.  We don't even know how to grow food properly in the USA.  So if we can't even grow our food right then we can't do shit right.  





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Outlawing weapons seems kind of totalitarian but more control and restrictions is certainly needed.



osamanobama said:


which is funny because that was caused by our government in the first place. (fanny and freddy) they pretty much forced with lots of incentives for banks to gives out loans to people who had no business having them because "it was a right to own a home"

 

but yes unlike 90% of what our government does, owning guns is constitutional.

I remember Democrats calling Republicans racist in congress when they didn't want to pass the law that made Fannie and Freddie to give out the subprime loans.  The Dems said that not only was owning a house a "right" as opposed to a heard earned "priveledge", but that if all those ethnic minorities could just move to the suburbs, all that crime would be reduced and they would learn better.  What they failed to realize was that you need a JOB first to support that life, THEN you move to the nice area.  Living in a nice area if you're poor and dumb as balls won't make your life automatically better.  Ugh.  I need to stop.  The government's stupidity is overwhelming.



BOOM!  FACE KICK!

sethnintendo said:


We have been releasing the wolves back in the wild in the USA (if you missed the programs about the Yellowstone wolves) in Yellowstone and a few other parts of northern US. 

If by resource you mean the plants in people's yard that the deer eat then yes.  They will eat those plants or as much as they can (they actually create a deer browse line where you can see up to a certain height almost all vegetation eaten in areas of heavy deer population).  I am not against hunting in any way considering that is part of what I went to college for.  Hunting is apart of wildlife I will not deny that but I am just trying to state that one needs to look at the big picture and realize what did we do/are we doing wrong that put us in this situation.  To be frank the handling of wildlife in the USA is piss fucking poor.  While it has improved in some areas it has a far long way to go.  We don't even know how to grow food properly in the USA.  So if we can't even grow our food right then we can't do shit right.  



Not enough wolves though since we are still having this deer problem.  It's a start, but we will never get enough back out there.

I know the big picture, and like you, I see that it sucks.  But I'm just staying within my own limits here and realizing that we use hunting now for a certain reason and it is justified, just as you say. 

I think that we should have those tall towers of farmland in big cities that I'm sure you've seen mentioned (can't remember the name) and a few of those could help sustain most big cities with their produce, greatly recude prices since there wouldn't be travel costs, and save land area as it would be spiraling upwards, not taking up flat land.

But our government is inept and I don't see any rich businessmen lining up to make it happen anytime soon.  Maybe it will.  I hope so.  Looks like all the billionaires are more concerned with space travel now (another worthy project) and with building themselves really tall skyscrapers (not as worthy).  Or they are just too busy running a company.

As human nature goes, I think the reason we aren't fixing how we grow our food is because it's not broken enough.  People are still eating, very few go hungry here, and we have excess food and farmland still.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it comes to mind, but its more like, sure it's broke, but it's not completely busted, so let's go with it until it explodes.  That's how people roll :p



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Mummelmann said:
Outlawing weapons seems kind of totalitarian but more control and restrictions is certainly needed.


In what way would more restrictions/control help? There are many documented cases where when stricter gun laws are enforced crime/murder rates increase. Nearly all crimes where a gun is used, the gun was obtained illegally. So taking guns away via restrictions just stops honest gun owners/hunters from getting guns but criminals still find ways to get them. 



leatherhat said:
Player1x3 said:
leatherhat said:
Its not about home defense or hunting. Its about making sure the people can always "take care" of the government if they overstep their bounds, which America has apparently forgotten.


You honestly think american people can defeat government controlled US Army? Or did I misunderstood you?


Yes, and without too much difficulty 

then you don't know the first thing about military or modern warfare