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Forums - Politics Discussion - Ron Paul did something amazing last night

Nik24 said:

 

To open the whole new disussion on the 2nd amendment: Yes, if I lived in the 17th, 18th century with wild animals, the possibility of Native American raids, no indpendent police force and under a corrupt regime, I would want to carry arms and defend my family. However, things have changed. People should be allowed to bear arms, I do not challenge this right. But how do background checks etc. infringe on this right? Why is it necessary to get machine guns? Do you really need your gun so bad, so that you couldn't wait until your demand has been approved? Again, I do not have a problem with people having guns for sport, hunting or in their homes but why carry it in malls, schools or on-campus? I am honestly scared by the idea that any person regardless of his or her state of mind or psychological problems, can just enter a store in Texas and by a semi-automatic weapon.

Spoken like a true person who has never been around gun culture.

Go look at our data on allowing more firearm freedoms in states vs. those which successively restrict firearm ownership. States that have very lax laws are generally safer than those with excessive laws. Even the anti-gun Brady campaign has shown it, as states with more restrictions have more murders with firearms. When states allow carrying concealed weapons (CCW), crime has consistently decreased, because criminals are afraid their lives would be taken if they attempted a robbery. Comparatively, when you have areas with heavy firearm restrictions, such as university campuses, you've had many school shootings in 'gun-free zones'.

Finally, we do have many kinds of checks that ensure that mentally unstable people cannot own firearms.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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mrstickball said:
Nik24 said:

 

To open the whole new disussion on the 2nd amendment: Yes, if I lived in the 17th, 18th century with wild animals, the possibility of Native American raids, no indpendent police force and under a corrupt regime, I would want to carry arms and defend my family. However, things have changed. People should be allowed to bear arms, I do not challenge this right. But how do background checks etc. infringe on this right? Why is it necessary to get machine guns? Do you really need your gun so bad, so that you couldn't wait until your demand has been approved? Again, I do not have a problem with people having guns for sport, hunting or in their homes but why carry it in malls, schools or on-campus? I am honestly scared by the idea that any person regardless of his or her state of mind or psychological problems, can just enter a store in Texas and by a semi-automatic weapon.

Spoken like a true person who has never been around gun culture.

Go look at our data on allowing more firearm freedoms in states vs. those which successively restrict firearm ownership. States that have very lax laws are generally safer than those with excessive laws. Even the anti-gun Brady campaign has shown it, as states with more restrictions have more murders with firearms. When states allow carrying concealed weapons (CCW), crime has consistently decreased, because criminals are afraid their lives would be taken if they attempted a robbery. Comparatively, when you have areas with heavy firearm restrictions, such as university campuses, you've had many school shootings in 'gun-free zones'.

Finally, we do have many kinds of checks that ensure that mentally unstable people cannot own firearms.

And countless loopholes around those checks, fought for by our good friends at the NRA



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I like Ron Paul.



                          

scat398 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Nik24 said:
 

 

@Samuel: Yes, nature does decarbonize. However, please take a look at rise of pollution compared to the decline of forests. There is no way that all these pollutions can be made up. Regarding the economics, there is (more or less) a common understanding among economists that externalities are not fully internalized, just as the market can never be fully efficient. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong if you believe that the most profitable route is always the most efficient route. Recent developments should convince you otherwise.

3. @Samuel: It actually is a discussion about property rights. I do believe there a certain limits to it and you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate even if it your store. Back in the 60s (and sadly still today in some parts) in the South, Racism was common and widespread. The general public was not disgusted by Racism. So the Civil Rights Act really was very much ahead of its time. But what is government for if not to actually lead and educate people in some areas? I do not know how long it would have taken to really get rid of discrimination if not for the CRA.

Yes, I know that externatilities are not internalized (hence the name), but, forced climate change rules also have other externalities. What of the families in China and India who won't be able to feed their families because of our green policies? Why do we spend so much time worrying about people in the future when there are people suffering today? This is my main problem with climate change, no action can be made without consequences, and climate change actions tend to lead to bigger problems than the destruction climate change could cause. Bangladesh will be under water by 2100 if we don't do something? Well, if we continue on our current path, Bangladesh will be as wealthy as the Netherlands by 2100, and they've been dealing with the problem of being below sea level for a long time.

Which recent developments will convince me otherwise? Lots of companies have started going "green" recently. If you look beyond the PR statements, and see what they say to the investors, it's because they know that by cutting waste, they can reduce costs. When Tesco started replacing the freezers in their stores, they didn't do it for the environment (although their PR said this), they did it because the reduced energy costs were going to save them millions in the long run. Cars are constantly getting more energy efficient, because that's what the market dictates (and hybrids, natural gas, electricity cars are already starting to carve niches), because energy costs go up.

The fact of the matter is, the West have now reached a point where the amount of carbon emitted per dollar generared is on the decline. This is a fundamental cornerstone, but it would have been reached no matter who was in charge, as its a product of economic development. The same is true of other environmental issues, as countries get richer, they get more efficient, and they can pay to treat waste. As a result, things like water and air pollution in developed countries are starting to improve.

Basically, if you're worried about climate change, let the world grow rich. It's not moral to say to countries that they must stay poor, and produce nothing, so we have to engage in policies that let them get as rich as possible. Forcing us to buy energy-efficient lightbulbs, and having a swath of unnecessary environmental regulations don't solve this issue.

---

"What is government for if not to actually lead and educate people in some areas? "

The role of the (Federal) Government is to protect our rights, nothing more, nothing less. 

Samuel I have no idea why you think the department of education is something to look up to or actually think has something to do with the education of our children.  At best it is an unneeded entity that works as a middle man, but at it's worse it is an agency like any other exists only to grow.  Not that you can blame it for what it has become, anything that is created will always work to grow,it is a basic function: grow, create, increase spending to compensate for growth and creation, and so on and so on.

The true solution to better education lies at the state and city level where local solutions to problems can be implemented.  What will work in a large city will be uneeded in a rural community and the federal goverment is incapable of handling those micro issues.


Err... did you quote the right person?



SamuelRSmith said:
scat398 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Nik24 said:
 

 

@Samuel: Yes, nature does decarbonize. However, please take a look at rise of pollution compared to the decline of forests. There is no way that all these pollutions can be made up. Regarding the economics, there is (more or less) a common understanding among economists that externalities are not fully internalized, just as the market can never be fully efficient. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong if you believe that the most profitable route is always the most efficient route. Recent developments should convince you otherwise.

3. @Samuel: It actually is a discussion about property rights. I do believe there a certain limits to it and you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate even if it your store. Back in the 60s (and sadly still today in some parts) in the South, Racism was common and widespread. The general public was not disgusted by Racism. So the Civil Rights Act really was very much ahead of its time. But what is government for if not to actually lead and educate people in some areas? I do not know how long it would have taken to really get rid of discrimination if not for the CRA.

Yes, I know that externatilities are not internalized (hence the name), but, forced climate change rules also have other externalities. What of the families in China and India who won't be able to feed their families because of our green policies? Why do we spend so much time worrying about people in the future when there are people suffering today? This is my main problem with climate change, no action can be made without consequences, and climate change actions tend to lead to bigger problems than the destruction climate change could cause. Bangladesh will be under water by 2100 if we don't do something? Well, if we continue on our current path, Bangladesh will be as wealthy as the Netherlands by 2100, and they've been dealing with the problem of being below sea level for a long time.

Which recent developments will convince me otherwise? Lots of companies have started going "green" recently. If you look beyond the PR statements, and see what they say to the investors, it's because they know that by cutting waste, they can reduce costs. When Tesco started replacing the freezers in their stores, they didn't do it for the environment (although their PR said this), they did it because the reduced energy costs were going to save them millions in the long run. Cars are constantly getting more energy efficient, because that's what the market dictates (and hybrids, natural gas, electricity cars are already starting to carve niches), because energy costs go up.

The fact of the matter is, the West have now reached a point where the amount of carbon emitted per dollar generared is on the decline. This is a fundamental cornerstone, but it would have been reached no matter who was in charge, as its a product of economic development. The same is true of other environmental issues, as countries get richer, they get more efficient, and they can pay to treat waste. As a result, things like water and air pollution in developed countries are starting to improve.

Basically, if you're worried about climate change, let the world grow rich. It's not moral to say to countries that they must stay poor, and produce nothing, so we have to engage in policies that let them get as rich as possible. Forcing us to buy energy-efficient lightbulbs, and having a swath of unnecessary environmental regulations don't solve this issue.

---

"What is government for if not to actually lead and educate people in some areas? "

The role of the (Federal) Government is to protect our rights, nothing more, nothing less. 

Samuel I have no idea why you think the department of education is something to look up to or actually think has something to do with the education of our children.  At best it is an unneeded entity that works as a middle man, but at it's worse it is an agency like any other exists only to grow.  Not that you can blame it for what it has become, anything that is created will always work to grow,it is a basic function: grow, create, increase spending to compensate for growth and creation, and so on and so on.

The true solution to better education lies at the state and city level where local solutions to problems can be implemented.  What will work in a large city will be uneeded in a rural community and the federal goverment is incapable of handling those micro issues.


Err... did you quote the right person?

yeah sorry man I was having a hard time with all the quotes and re-quotes.



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One of the biggest problem with Ron Paul is that he will get nothing done. He would be in the same position as Obama but instead of having the backing of his party like Obama he would have the backing of none. An effective President is not an idealist because all go in thinking they can change the world, instead it's the President that can make deals and still keep his integrity.

Ron has all of these radical ideals he is going to do but guess what, without the support of democrats and republicans and a population that probably isn't all that keen on all of his ideals, he would be totally useless. If he is not willing to play politics then he will definitely do nothing feeling helpless as neither party is willing to play ball with him.

This is a hard lesson that Obama has learned in his first term. Depending on how the elections go, if republicans gain more seats and Obama wins then things still might look up for Obama because it would be his last term. You can forget about Ron Paul because his base is just not large enough to make any real moves. Mitt probably is the best choice because he would be able to gather his base but even then does he have what it takes to make the deals to push his agenda.

We like to think a president has all this power to do what they say on the campaign but in reality it takes a concerted effort and a president who know s how to make deals that get things done unless he has the majority party in both the senate and house. Even then the President must make deals with his base and that can get tricky sometimes as well.



mrstickball said:
Nik24 said:

 

To open the whole new disussion on the 2nd amendment: Yes, if I lived in the 17th, 18th century with wild animals, the possibility of Native American raids, no indpendent police force and under a corrupt regime, I would want to carry arms and defend my family. However, things have changed. People should be allowed to bear arms, I do not challenge this right. But how do background checks etc. infringe on this right? Why is it necessary to get machine guns? Do you really need your gun so bad, so that you couldn't wait until your demand has been approved? Again, I do not have a problem with people having guns for sport, hunting or in their homes but why carry it in malls, schools or on-campus? I am honestly scared by the idea that any person regardless of his or her state of mind or psychological problems, can just enter a store in Texas and by a semi-automatic weapon.

Spoken like a true person who has never been around gun culture.

Go look at our data on allowing more firearm freedoms in states vs. those which successively restrict firearm ownership. States that have very lax laws are generally safer than those with excessive laws. Even the anti-gun Brady campaign has shown it, as states with more restrictions have more murders with firearms. When states allow carrying concealed weapons (CCW), crime has consistently decreased, because criminals are afraid their lives would be taken if they attempted a robbery. Comparatively, when you have areas with heavy firearm restrictions, such as university campuses, you've had many school shootings in 'gun-free zones'.

Finally, we do have many kinds of checks that ensure that mentally unstable people cannot own firearms.

Can you show that the fact that gun laws are restrictive leads to more murders with firearms, rather than because areas have gun crimes out of control end up feeling a need to pass laws to restrict their gun usage?

And what makes you think a criminal committing a gun robbery thinks anything will go wrong?

Also needed to be studied is whether or not allowing concealed weapons increases or decreases the number of shooting deaths and incidents.



richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
Nik24 said:

 

To open the whole new disussion on the 2nd amendment: Yes, if I lived in the 17th, 18th century with wild animals, the possibility of Native American raids, no indpendent police force and under a corrupt regime, I would want to carry arms and defend my family. However, things have changed. People should be allowed to bear arms, I do not challenge this right. But how do background checks etc. infringe on this right? Why is it necessary to get machine guns? Do you really need your gun so bad, so that you couldn't wait until your demand has been approved? Again, I do not have a problem with people having guns for sport, hunting or in their homes but why carry it in malls, schools or on-campus? I am honestly scared by the idea that any person regardless of his or her state of mind or psychological problems, can just enter a store in Texas and by a semi-automatic weapon.

Spoken like a true person who has never been around gun culture.

Go look at our data on allowing more firearm freedoms in states vs. those which successively restrict firearm ownership. States that have very lax laws are generally safer than those with excessive laws. Even the anti-gun Brady campaign has shown it, as states with more restrictions have more murders with firearms. When states allow carrying concealed weapons (CCW), crime has consistently decreased, because criminals are afraid their lives would be taken if they attempted a robbery. Comparatively, when you have areas with heavy firearm restrictions, such as university campuses, you've had many school shootings in 'gun-free zones'.

Finally, we do have many kinds of checks that ensure that mentally unstable people cannot own firearms.

Can you show that the fact that gun laws are restrictive leads to more murders with firearms, rather than because areas have gun crimes out of control end up feeling a need to pass laws to restrict their gun usage?

And what makes you think a criminal committing a gun robbery thinks anything will go wrong?

Also needed to be studied is whether or not allowing concealed weapons increases or decreases the number of shooting deaths and incidents.

I never said that there were more murders with firearms due to presence/absence of restrictions, but more murders in aggregate are committed. One can simply correlate Brady statistics with similar lists of murders per capita. The argument would be that due to more firearm restrictions, criminals have less disincentive to commit crimes. Generally, most firearm bans were passed prior to crime getting out of hand, rather than before. One can look at when bans were passed in DC, NYC and Chicago and see that there was no decrease in crime.

Watch a few videos where journalists ask criminals if they prefer armed or unarmed victims. They will tell you that if there is a higher probability of armed resistance, they are likely to commit crimes.

Take a look at Florida's crime rates. Their CCW law passed in 1987. During that year, there were 123,000 violent crimes among 12 million people, or 0.01 violent crimes per person. In 2010, there were 18 million people and 101,000 violent crimes, or 0.0053 violent crimes per person (a 47% decrease over 23 years). Comparatively, the US average was 0.006 violent crimes per person in 1987, and 0.004 in 2010, or a drop of 33% in the same 23 years.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

The good news is it looks like Ron Paul will win Iowa, but the bad news is every media outlet has allready started the "Iowa doesn't count now" segments. We knew this would happen so it's not unexpected. I personally like the recent polling data showing Romney and Paul at the same percentage in a heads up race with Obama 50% - 45% but they only mention Romney when talking about the poll and then they mention Gingrich sitting at 42%. It's almost awkward to watch the anchorman talk and try not to mention Ron Paul.



the media stops completely ignoring ron paul...his numbers shoot up. who would have suspected?!



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