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Forums - Sales - 2008 at Bruceongames

natureman3 said:
Gamerace said:
The average gamer doesn't care about graphics as much as gameplay. That's why the system with the best graphics has never won in any generation. PS2 had the weakest and yet totally murdered the more powerful GC and Xbox.

So in that respect, what has MS or Sony done with this new generation of machines to introduce new gameplay? Ummm... nothing. LittleBigPlanet may be the only notable exception. Otherwise it's all the same old stuff, been there, done that, yeah it's prettier - so what?

The Wii now only brings something new to existing games, but brings in entirely new experiences like Wii Sports/WiiFit. I don't think they'll feel any pressure to have to upgrade. However MS and Sony may if they hope to expand beyond just core gamers.

Your analysis about gfx is full of errors.

ps2 sold massively since the begining based on its promise of being the next "Toy Story games" console and it counted massively. It was the weakest system compared to Gamecube / Xbox but it was SIMILAR. An untrained eyes could barely notice it, especially with some of Sony first party games like GT4.

 Now the situation is completely different : the wii boards a 6 year old technology and the difference is noticeable by anybody. I don't think GT5 looks like Mario Kart.

The fact that all the ads running at christmas were promoting the same products as Christmas 2006 says something about the depth of the new gameplay experince Wii is offering... 


 

There have been several generations of very large graphical differences which didn't ammount to much when it came to sales, the N64 was dramatically more powerful than the Playstation and the Neo Geo was far more powerful than the SNES.

The real question is how much of a meaningful improvement does the PS3 or XBox 360 actually represent?

The Wii, XBox 360 and PS3 can all have facial animation, skeletal animation, newtonian and dynamics physics engines, highly detailed 3D models, excellent texture work, texture effects (various types of bump mapping, lighting and material effects), and so on ...

Basically the Wii, XBox 360 and PS3 offer (in general) offer the exact same graphical and simulation technologies with the main difference being that the XBox 360 and PS3 can do these things far better; your physics simulation can be larger and somewhat more realistic, your 3D models can be somewhat more detailed and have higher resolution textures and better texture effects, and so on.

We will see over time, but I'm not too sure that people will care enough about getting somewhat better effects across multiple areas enough to actually give up on the Wii and choose the PS3/XBox 360.



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natureman3 said:
Gamerace said:
The average gamer doesn't care about graphics as much as gameplay. That's why the system with the best graphics has never won in any generation. PS2 had the weakest and yet totally murdered the more powerful GC and Xbox.

So in that respect, what has MS or Sony done with this new generation of machines to introduce new gameplay? Ummm... nothing. LittleBigPlanet may be the only notable exception. Otherwise it's all the same old stuff, been there, done that, yeah it's prettier - so what?

The Wii now only brings something new to existing games, but brings in entirely new experiences like Wii Sports/WiiFit. I don't think they'll feel any pressure to have to upgrade. However MS and Sony may if they hope to expand beyond just core gamers.

Your analysis about gfx is full of errors.

ps2 sold massively since the begining based on its promise of being the next "Toy Story games" console and it counted massively. It was the weakest system compared to Gamecube / Xbox but it was SIMILAR. An untrained eyes could barely notice it, especially with some of Sony first party games like GT4.

 Now the situation is completely different : the wii boards a 6 year old technology and the difference is noticeable by anybody. I don't think GT5 looks like Mario Kart.

The fact that all the ads running at christmas were promoting the same products as Christmas 2006 says something about the depth of the new gameplay experince Wii is offering... 


Well, we can agree to disagree here.  Personally I think Xbox graphics were noticably better than PS2s.  But this was rarely seen since PS2 (the weakest system) was the lead platform for all multi-console titles.  So most Xbox titles looked like PS2 ones.  However, some, like Halo, did not.

I also disagree that many of the 120m who bought a PS2 did so because of 'Toy Story' like graphics.  They got it to play their favorite games because let's face it, PS2 had WAY more titles to choose from.  Way more gameplay experiences basically, which was the entire point. 

I do agree the difference in graphics wasn't as great.  However, you missed the point entirely.  Previously new generation of consoles created new types of gameplay that the previous generation didn't/couldn't have. Or at least took it to a whole new level not previously possible.  So far, and this could change, there wasn't been a single game on PS3/360 that wasn't out, or could have been, on PS2/Xbox (graphics notwithstanding).  The same cannot be said of the Wii.  Although very few games have been made so far (even by Nintendo) that capitalize on this fully.



 

HDTV puts about four times the number of pixels on the screen. When consumers see this it is such a huge leap in performance that they will want it. At the moment there isn't much true HDTV content so people are generally unaware of the capabilities. But this situation is changing every day as more HDTV is broadcast and more people get HD DVD or Blu-Ray players. Games thus far on the HD consoles have come nowhere near delivering the full HDTV experience. Over 2008 this will gradually change. When it does the results will blow you away. Once people routinely watch broadcast HD television and watch HD videos they will not want to go back to inferior quality. The same will apply to gaming. Once people are fully HD literate they will not want to go back. So what is key to the life of the Wii is how long it takes for people to become fully HD aware (they are generally not there yet) and how long it takes the games industry to make the best of HD graphics. These will not be sudden things. They will ramp up gradually over the next couple of years. What is for absolute certainty is that by Q4 2009 the Wii will be seen by most as obsolete technology.



Incisive and erudite blog by game industry professional.

http://www.bruceongames.com/

 

Um...ye- No, I don't think people are buying $500 Wii consoles on ebay because they're unaware that HDTVs display in HD. The only way Wii will be "obselete" by the end of 09 is if Wii 2 is released, which damn sure isn't happening.



Tag - "No trolling on my watch!"

Bruceongames said:

Wii mania

For the last two weeks the PS3 has outsold the Wii in Japan. Now a lot of this is down to Sony introducing a cheaper version of the PS3. But the biggest factor must be stock availability of the Wii. Nintendo just cannot make enough to keep up with worldwide demand. And with Super Mario Galaxy just out and being proclaimed by many as the best game ever that demand is just going to get worse.

The last production figure that Nintendo released was 1.8 million units a month but, confusingly, they say they are shipping an extra 3.5 million units worldwide for christmas. Which could make a total of 7.1 million units over November and December. And they will easily sell them all.

The situation in the UK is close to manic. A lady I know put her name on several shop waiting lists and was finally only allowed to buy one if she bought six games at the same time! There are website that tell you of stock availability, but as soon as they say a retailer has some that retailer’s website crashes under the demand. Amazon sold 1,400 units in just ten minutes and secondhand Wiis fetch increasingly higher premiums on Ebay.

These are amazing times and they are the consequence of Nintendo making gaming fun for all the family instead of the niche demographic that video gaming has traditionally catered for. The annoying thing is that the industry could have made this massive leap years ago. But lacked the will and ability to do so.

Of course this represents a fantastic opportunity for game developers. But they cannot produce the games that they produced before. The audience and it’s expectations are different now. I have posted this development guide before and it is very relevant:
1) Don’t do shovelware. You are just damaging your brand(s).
2) Write Wii specific titles. Don’t port. You have to respect the interface difference.
3) Understand that most Wiis live in the lounge. And most other consoles live in the bedroom.
4) Polish, lots. Then polish some more.
5) Realise that you have to provide entertainment for the population at large. FPS titles are not a good idea.
6) You need to market completely differently. PR in women’s magazines will work a lot better than adverts in game magazines.
7) Talk to your wife/girlfriend. They understand the Wii better than you do.

It will be extremely interesting to see what happens after Christmas. Maybe the Wii is a seasonal gift item and sales will fall flat. Or maybe the release of system seller titles such as Wii Fit will keep the demand going.

 


 I agree with this article for the most part, but it does raise some questions when referenced with your most recent article you posted in the OP.  Most notably you seem to agree that this craze isn't going away any time soon and since I don't have any indication that you think the 360 or the PS3 will suddenly jump to Wii level sales I am going to go out on a limb and assume you were attempting to write the article in a way that wouldn't immediately reject or repulse anti-Wii readers from finishing it.  If that is the case I can definitely understand why you would do it, you are afterall attempting to create a readership, yes? 

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
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Sqrl said:
Bruceongames said:

Wii mania

For the last two weeks the PS3 has outsold the Wii in Japan. Now a lot of this is down to Sony introducing a cheaper version of the PS3. But the biggest factor must be stock availability of the Wii. Nintendo just cannot make enough to keep up with worldwide demand. And with Super Mario Galaxy just out and being proclaimed by many as the best game ever that demand is just going to get worse.

The last production figure that Nintendo released was 1.8 million units a month but, confusingly, they say they are shipping an extra 3.5 million units worldwide for christmas. Which could make a total of 7.1 million units over November and December. And they will easily sell them all.

The situation in the UK is close to manic. A lady I know put her name on several shop waiting lists and was finally only allowed to buy one if she bought six games at the same time! There are website that tell you of stock availability, but as soon as they say a retailer has some that retailer’s website crashes under the demand. Amazon sold 1,400 units in just ten minutes and secondhand Wiis fetch increasingly higher premiums on Ebay.

These are amazing times and they are the consequence of Nintendo making gaming fun for all the family instead of the niche demographic that video gaming has traditionally catered for. The annoying thing is that the industry could have made this massive leap years ago. But lacked the will and ability to do so.

Of course this represents a fantastic opportunity for game developers. But they cannot produce the games that they produced before. The audience and it’s expectations are different now. I have posted this development guide before and it is very relevant:
1) Don’t do shovelware. You are just damaging your brand(s).
2) Write Wii specific titles. Don’t port. You have to respect the interface difference.
3) Understand that most Wiis live in the lounge. And most other consoles live in the bedroom.
4) Polish, lots. Then polish some more.
5) Realise that you have to provide entertainment for the population at large. FPS titles are not a good idea.
6) You need to market completely differently. PR in women’s magazines will work a lot better than adverts in game magazines.
7) Talk to your wife/girlfriend. They understand the Wii better than you do.

It will be extremely interesting to see what happens after Christmas. Maybe the Wii is a seasonal gift item and sales will fall flat. Or maybe the release of system seller titles such as Wii Fit will keep the demand going.

 


 I agree with this article for the most part, but it does raise some questions when referenced with your most recent article you posted in the OP.  Most notably you seem to agree that this craze isn't going away any time soon and since I don't have any indication that you think the 360 or the PS3 will suddenly jump to Wii level sales I am going to go out on a limb and assume you were attempting to write the article in a way that wouldn't immediately reject or repulse anti-Wii readers from finishing it.  If that is the case I can definitely understand why you would do it, you are afterall attempting to create a readership, yes? 

 

I write to provoke thought not to create a fanboy pavlovian reaction. The audience for Bruceongames are industry professionals.

Wii is an amazing creation of Nintendo and has a fantastic but short future ahead of it. Imagine if someone brought out a console that only displayed in black and white because that is what televisions used to be. This is the situation Wii will be in by Q4 2009. Nintendo are not stupid, they know this, so new product announcements are inevitable.

 



Incisive and erudite blog by game industry professional.

http://www.bruceongames.com/

 

Bruceongames said:

I write to provoke thought not to create a fanboy pavlovian reaction. The audience for Bruceongames are industry professionals.

Wii is an amazing creation of Nintendo and has a fantastic but short future ahead of it. Imagine if someone brought out a console that only displayed in black and white because that is what televisions used to be. This is the situation Wii will be in by Q4 2009. Nintendo are not stupid, they know this, so new product announcements are inevitable.

 


Just provoking thought doesn't gaurantee that an article is succesfull in defining reality. For instance, Newton's theories of gravitation were extremely thought provoking but uiltimately proven incorrect.

Also, I feel I should point out that you are contradicting yourself now, how can you say you 100% agree with my statement that the Wii has deep and genuine longterm appeal and then say that it has a short future. The two ideas are obviously mutually exclusive. More over you are now falling into the trap I previously spoke of, which is to say, you are attempting to quantify a paradigm shift in terms of the old paradigm....

On the topic itself, I would agree that Nintendo is not stupid, and that is precisely why they would never make obsolete a product that is selling faster than any reasonable expectations have predicted. Thats just not good business sense, and I am quite honestly baffled that people could honestly believe this.

Lets just break this down:

On the one hand we have the fact that the Wii is selling very well, software sales are excellent for a console at this point in its life and increasing, demand is so high that it isn't feasible to predict it, and people who have never gamed are gaming. All of this lends itself to the idea that the Wii will continue to be the lead Nintendo Console well into the future and certainly well past 2009.

And on the other hand you have speculation that people will want HD enough to demand it in the Wii, speculation that people will be ok with their investment in the Wii becoming obsolete, and speculation that Nintendo would even consider it.

Unless their is something beyond speculation I have to say I just don't see how that kind of view appeals to anyone who considers themself an Industry Professional and as such I don't see how it is targeted at anything other than the gratification of hurt fanboy egos. Perhaps I am being a bit blunt here, but that is how I see it.

If you expect anyone but a fanboy to take the view seriously it needs to be backed by something beyond speculation and correlation to other tech products...because it is being contradicted by hard data about this tech product which is a far more compelling argument I must say.



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Bruceongames said:
Fastrabbit09 said:
interesting that u didn't mention Super Smash Bros Brawl or Mario Kart, both of which have the potential to claim the #1 best selling game of the year, for the Wii

and how can the bubble already be bursting when the wii is still sold out?

i get 3-4 calls DAILY from a Wii ad on craigslist for 350 from 2 weeks ago...the demand is crazy

u can try to make an argument that the Wii will stop selling out this year despite wii fit/ssbb/mariokart/etc and then we'll call u crazy, but to say the bubble is already bursting is just plain wrong

we can already prove the bubble isn't bursting when it's sold out...maybe change it to predicting the bubble will start bursting next week or anytime in the future, but u can't say it's bursting today when it's sold out today

 

Hi thanks for that reply. Interesting. What I said was "The Nintendo Wii could very well be a bubble that is already bursting. " This is not based on ebay prices or shop inventory. It is based on the buzz and hype going on amongst ordinary everyday people. Before Christmas everyone wanted a Wii and everyone was talking about it. Now they are talking about other things. Nintendo said that they moved the January production into December so stock will still be tight for a while as there is no new inventory till February. The Wii will then be a regular off the shelf item till the end of it's life.

 Dude you haven't been paying attention to the news then, Wii is talked about everywhere, heck it was mentioned on the daily show tonight, sorry but your argument that Wii is bursting is flawed



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Bruceongames said:
super_etecoon said:
Welcome to VGChartz, though since you use our (ioi's) numbers you must have been a lurker for a while.

Nintendo likes to upgrade hardware? Maybe for their handhelds....but I don't think there has ever been a hardware revision for one of their consoles. Certainly they have added peripherals, but their systems remain intact.

Also...Nintendo will release an HD Wii — called the Wii2 in 2011.

 

Thanks. VGChartz is a standard industry reference, so I have been here a few times before. In my blog article there is a link back to here. Wii2 in 2011 makes sense from a 5 year console cycle point of view. However the Wii is not really from this generation. It is from the last generation. It is just a souped up Gamecube with a gesture interface. And so falls a very long way behind the 360 and PS3 in capabilities. This will find it out well before 2011, especially the lack of HD graphics. So I think that Nintendo will introduce "Wii2" far sooner and continue with Wii1 as an entry level machine and for third world markets. This will give them a two model range, just as Sony have with the PS2 and PS3.

 You need to brush up on your gaming history, NES was a gen behind at its launch, it was never harmed by that, people want simplicity and fun, not graphics



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Bruceongames said:
RolStoppable said:

Bruceongames said:


That is a very quick overview. It is impossibly to say who will do best out of the three. This generation of consoles is spectacularly good at making analyst’s predictions look stupid. One major change that has emerged is that Microsoft are now a player at the top table in the console industry. Just watching how they use this new found position will be fascinating.


Hardware sales? Nintendo.

Software sales? Nintendo.

Marketshare? Nintendo.

Profits? Nintendo. 

That actually isn't hard to predict, let alone impossible. Besides that, you are making a lot of mistakes in your analysis (Wii is a fad, SSBB and Mario Kart don't seem to exist, HD is important). But maybe that's the reason how you came to the conclusion that it is hard to predict who will do best out of the three.

Oh, and welcome to VGChartz. 


 

Thanks for the welcome. I am not a fanboy for any manufacturer. I doubt your predictions for 2008 because of GTA IV, MGS4, Halo Wars, Ninja Gaiden II, Too Human, Fable 2, Killzone 2, LittleBigPlanet, etc. There are just too many AAA must have, mega selling titles coming out on 360 and PS3. Also Wii has been bought mainly by casual gamers and will have a low attach rate compared with the more hardcore owners of 360s and PS3s who buy far more games. However anything can and will happen in this generation, so you may well end up being right!!

 Again flawed reasoning, since most people don't care for those games, granny doesn't care about Metal gear solid, she will however care about Wii sports and Wii fit

 

Also hardcore will get a Wii for the sake of SSBB and Kart and others, you see MS and Sony were half right when they said everyone would get their consoles and a Wii, gamers will get a Wii and possibly a PS3 or 360, but the average consumer only cares about Wii



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)