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Forums - Sales Discussion - Do you think Sony will ever make a net profit from the PS3?

Hate to be the spoiler on this but it has to be said.

The PS3 has had massive price cuts (2 of them!) within its first year just to be able to MATCH the XBox 360.

Not to leave it in the dust, just to MATCH it.

With their loss leading business model they don't make enough software sales to cover the gap. And because of their high production costs it takes just that much more software to turn some coin from.

The two price cuts & the reconfiguration of models has certainly helped them in what would have been a totally bleak year but do you REALLY think Microsoft is just gonna sit idly by and let PS3 get momentum??

PS3 sold close to 9 million in its first full year from opening launch. 

XBox 360 sold about 9 million in its first full year from opening launch. With no price cuts.

Granted XBox 360 had a universal launch while PS3's PAL debut happened a few months later (their own fault for that though) but still it took PS3 two massive $100 cuts to approach what XBox 360 has done on the market. Itself only using one $50 cut in addition to new models with new prices.

Benefitting the PS3 is the fact that at least its hardware isn't seen as shoddy and unreliable. This stalled 360 no doubt. I truly believe that. And Sony's inclusion of Blu-Ray tech in the package may be helping PS3 get some value advantage which can move a few units. But the sad fact is the losses made to achieve what they're achieving now hurts them without games to back it up. Blu-Ray movies aren't selling enough to make up the gap either since the HD disc market isn't fully developed yet & some Blu-Ray afficionados aren't all buying the PS3 for Blu-Ray anyway.

It's sad that for every PS3 sold it hurts the pocketbook that much more due to how their business model is set-up. Going by what we know from the dominant PS2 all that can be said from its success is "Pyrrhic Victory". You won but at what cost to yourself? The 6th gen dominator did not have incomes that reflected their unit sales. Even so it was enough to pay the bills & have some luxury funds with but it showed the glaring weakness in their strategy. To win with that setup you have to be all-dominant...just to pull in a LITTLE profit.

Since Sony is not efficient every minute costs them. If it doesn't sell then that's problems for warehouse expenses & such. If it sells then that's problems for production expenses & such.

Say it costs Sony a net of $400 to make a PS3 (net being end result of original production cost [say $800] & retail price [say $400]). If they sell 5 million of them then they lose $2 billion in production costs. Success costs them if they move units. $2 billion is 1/25 of a Bill Gates or 2 Oprahs. 4% of Big Bucks Billy & 200% of Stedman's Galpal. Do you know how much money that is???

But what if it doesn't sell? A net loss of $400 with assorted storage costs, warehousing costs, retail buybacks, shipping fees, etc. Not only do they still lose that original $2 billion in production costs (they lose that money simply by producing. not dependent on sales) but they also lose all kinds of money for the logistical problems caused by units that dont move. They have to alter their future production estimates while still holding factories (luckily they have internal ones which offset some problems). The ones waiting to sell accrue storage fees from warehousers. Retailers burnt by an overstock of non-moving units will demand that the manufacturer buy them back since it costs the retailer money to store the units. This may incline them to not buy so many next time. And because of all this they spend money trying to find solutions to all of these problems.

Let's just say all this combined costs $1 billion (not so sure on the costs of those kinds of problems so I just put a figure). That would end up being $3 billion lost from making those 5 million PS3's instead of $2 billion and because of the domino effect this will make worse future losses due to a not-in-demand product. Games will be less able to sell due to smaller base & developers start looking for other avenues to place their games on out of fear for lost returns. Retail space is adjusted for popularity making worse problems for sales and some retailers may eventually stop displaying the product at all. Meanwhile all of the logistics are tallying up on the cab fare 'cause time is money.

This is the situation Microsoft is looking for in 2008. They have more money than Sony. Anybody who loses $4 billion just to enter the game business & sticks around means business. Simple as that. They will put the pressure on Sony in 2008 going after their developers with bribe money to make the switch to 360 exclusivity. They will market hard to make the PS3 name 'Mud' with all their 'FUD'. They will be aggressive in markets where the PS3 & 360 are comparable and competitive (Europe). A well-timed price drop, a well-timed game platform switch, a well-timed media campaign. This is what you'll see in 2008 from Microsoft towards Sony.

And to underline this look at the main markets. XBox 360 is strong in the USA/North America region. An American console would HAVE to be wouldn't it? Bad if it wasn't. It's weaker in Europe & PALs overall though stronger in some individual regions while weaker in other ones. It's nobody in Japan. The misfit there.

The PS3 has the most promise in the overall Europe/PALs for growth. In Japan, it's #2 but a very distant #2 in the home console segment due to Wii. In USA/NA, it's a clear #3. You can't look at this in a vacuum. Nintendo has ruined the party for both of them, Sony AND Microsoft, with their handheld/home console tagteam. Nintendo is all dominant in Japan on both handheld & console side. Nintendo is dominant handheld-wise in Europe with overall strength console-wise with Wii (Europe's Nintendo's weakest region). Nintendo is strengthening in USA/NA being tops with handhelds & high with consoles.

For The Americas, Nintendo puts pressure on Microsoft in its strongest area and that pressure will grow until it's clear that Microsoft is a distinct #2 in hardware & software there. Microsoft has no handheld representative so it can't answer the DS. For Europe/PALs Nintendo is fighting Sony's loyal hold repairing ancient damage which has kept this their weakest market for decades. And they're winning. When the Sony loyal countries start turning to Nintendo for both handheld AND console Europe/PALs overall will belong definitively to Nintendo. Certain regions of this multi-faceted market have already made the switch. In Japan, it's Nintendo-land. They can't be challenged there by anybody. And that messes up Sony tremendously since Japan is the capital of this whole business to begin with.

So we have Sony trying to take MS's place in the Americas (most notably USA, the buyingest nation in the world) while Nintendo loosens MS's grip on this market. We will have Microsoft trying to increase its presence in Europe/PALs to cutoff any potential Sony progress while both of them also face a strong Nintendo. In Japan, we have Sony trying to close the gap between #1 & #2 in both handheld & console against Nintendo's dominant juggernaut with Microsoft just trying to get a decent look there.

Sony has to watch for an increasingly aggressive Microsoft while STILL having to prepare for the inevitable inescapable Nintendomination which will consume and transform the whole market to Nintendo's advantage. All this spells to me is costs, costs, costs. Expenses, expenses, expenses. Liabilities, liabilities, liabilities.

If a miracle happens & Sony stops Microsoft's plans to totally usurp them then they will lose LESS. However, because of how the market is going & has gone they will never see a profit from the PS3. XBox 360 has not panned out gold for Microsoft yet despite its strong sales in USA. They have moved on the market slowly even with so much advantage. PS3 is tracking like them more or less. It's not good enough to do OK if your business model is costing you. With every Nintendo success both Sony & Microsoft are hurt. They will have to approach some of the sales speed Nintendo does to make a turn around in the accountant books.

Much like with Microsoft, Sony as a whole won't crumble because of the PS3 but it's a good chance their Computer Entertainment (Games) Division might. No one really understands this business better than Nintendo & this generation is showing this. Keyword: Business. Many enter, most leave. It's not easy to last in this field. You gotta be smart and efficient to hang around long-term.

Of course these production cost margins will narrow since nothing runs at a constant rate but time is of the essence for either Sony or Microsoft to turn a profit from their machines. Some may say that time has already passed. That much will be for sure once Nintendo pulls the rug out from under them as they reshape the industry in their image. Better think of something, guys.

John Lucas 



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

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Smidlee said:
Sorrow880 said:
Once again though...it is hard to measure the true losses. If blu-ray is very successful in the future, that will be because of the ps3. However, that won't be included in the ps3's #'s. Also, how much does the ps3 help Sony's other departments? e.g. HD tv's, etc.?
As I said, it's the only reason I bought my Sony HD tv. W/O my ps3, I wouldn't have bothered going HD or even getting a Sony if I did (probably would have gotten a Samsung or Toshiba)

Good point.

Isn't the 3 billion losses from both the PS3 and the Blu-ray combine? Obviously PS3 is designed to be used to play HD movies and game since from what I've read PS3 have of the best Blu-ray player unlike PS2 average DVD player.

Also according to many Wii fans here the PS3 will have a long life of 20-50 years. If people really don't care about HD then PS3 (xbox360) is all you would ever need to run games in 480p (more like overkill). So there would be no need for a next generation PS. (All it needed is a different controller every five years.)

The thing is Nintendo is all about games and nothing else (many sees this as a good point) but Sony isn't all about games but also movies, HDTV , Blu-ray,etc.

 


Not that I dispute this line of thinking, but I was wondering if any one had (or had a link to) some statistics as to the percentage of blu-ray hardware sales by model.  I looked around but couldn't find any. 

@Bod: Well, you DO have to take in to account server costs and the like, but even if that is 40 mil/year (way to high) thats still 200 mil in profit.



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"With their loss leading business model they don't make enough software sales to cover the gap. And because of their high production costs it takes just that much more software to turn some coin from."

I see this argument used a lot but the problem I have with this is why are there so many PC games that looks better than console games yet doesn't have the consoles WW sells? 



Smidlee said:

"With their loss leading business model they don't make enough software sales to cover the gap. And because of their high production costs it takes just that much more software to turn some coin from."

I see this argument used a lot but the problem I have with this is why are there so many PC games that looks better than console games yet doesn't have the consoles WW sells? 


PCs don't need game sales.  There are very few huge marketing budgets for PC games, and PC versions USUALLY come as a port way further down the timeline (unless its a genre MADE for the PC, aka WoW.)

 the PC gaming industry is completely different from that of the console industry.  So much so that they are really not comparable.

 



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X
CrashMan said:
Smidlee said:

"With their loss leading business model they don't make enough software sales to cover the gap. And because of their high production costs it takes just that much more software to turn some coin from."

I see this argument used a lot but the problem I have with this is why are there so many PC games that looks better than console games yet doesn't have the consoles WW sells?


PCs don't need game sales. There are very few huge marketing budgets for PC games, and PC versions USUALLY come as a port way further down the timeline (unless its a genre MADE for the PC, aka WoW.)

the PC gaming industry is completely different from that of the console industry. So much so that they are really not comparable.

 

That true as I understand every console game I buy goes to Sony/Big N/Softy yet Sony obviously thinking more than games with PS3 unlike the other two. If blu-ray does win the format war I have no doubt the PS3 made the huge difference. Even half of the PS3 TV ads shows Blu-ray movies while the other games.

 



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RolStoppable said:
Parokki said:
Not that I'm doubting you guys, but could someone give me a source for how much money Sony made with the PS2? It'd be nice to have more than "some very credible guys told me on a very credible forum" if I later quote the numbers and someone asks me where they're from. =P

If you have them handy, then I'm also interested in the same numbers for Nintendo and Microsoft (-4bn$ wasn't it?) as well, but don't strain yourselves for little old me.


Renar filtered out the most important information of the financial reports for Sony's gaming division, so I am just going to quote him. Credit to him for doing the work.

http://www.sonet.co.uk/SonyInfo/IR/financial/ar/Archive.html

Sony Annual Reports Game Operating Income
YearEnd Mar 31 Yen(B)

2006 8.7
2005 43.2
2004 67.6
2003 112.7
2002 82.9
2001 (51.1)
2000 77.4
1999 136.5
1998 117
1997 57
1996 (5)

PS1 era (1996-2000) made 383B yen. PS2 era (2001-2006) made 264B yen.

PS2 *was* (and still is) profitable, but not as much as the PS1. Sony sold PS2 for too little to make as much as the PS1, before the next gen. box came along.

For Fiscal Year 2007 and 2008

Q2 (96.7)
Q1 (29.2)

2007 (232.3)

So far the PS3 era (2007-now) has lost (358B yen). So, they have now lost all they made on the PS2 (including what PS2 made the last year and a half), and are working on losing the PS1 profits as well.

Still all together for the last 12.5 years, Sony is up 289B Yen . At 115 yen/$ = $2.5B.


How can anyone honestly look at this and say they are gonna make a net profit.  It's beyond the realm of possibility, it's impossible.  From 2001-2006 Sony made 236 billion yen on the most dominant system of all time, they've currently lost 358 billion on the PS3.  Someone explain to me how they are gonna make all that money up?  That 358 billion yen in losses doesn't even include how the PS2 and PSP sales were offsetting it the whole time.  Get off the crack and just admit it.

 



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Nice breakdown Celine



i am only replying to the topic. NO!

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NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO!
NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO!NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!NO! NO!NO!
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the nintendo wii will outsell the ps3 and the 360 combined by the end of 2008.                           

        PS3 will out sell the 360 june 2010.                                                                      

  GOTY of 2008 is super smash brothers brawl.... hopefully.

END OF 08 PREDICTIONS:

Wii: 45 million         xbox360: 26 million       PS3: 19 million (made beginning of 08)

wii: 44 million         xbox 360: 24 million      PS3: 21 million (made june 08)

wii code: 8094-5344-2140-1400

brawl code: 5412-9565-3232   

johnsobas said:
 

How can anyone honestly look at this and say they are gonna make a net profit. It's beyond the realm of possibility, it's impossible. From 2001-2006 Sony made 236 billion yen on the most dominant system of all time, they've currently lost 358 billion on the PS3. Someone explain to me how they are gonna make all that money up? That 358 billion yen in losses doesn't even include how the PS2 and PSP sales were offsetting it the whole time. Get off the crack and just admit it.

 


The 236 billion yen they made didn't including their cost and losses but profit. If I am not mistaken they were losing on the PS2 at first as well. Then again a lot of the PS3 losses probably includes Blu-Ray losses/ investment.



Although this page of this thread is broken [for me it shows the first post with the quick reply box over the top] I can read it using the rich text replies. I imagine I would agree with much of JLs post [no way in hell I am reading it all] but I want to point out that, depending on how you class the first year, PS3 did manage more than 360. 360 from 22Nov 2005 to 31Dec 2006 sold about 7.8 million, which is one million less than PS3 managed from its sporadic 2006/7 launch till 31Dec 2007.