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Forums - General Discussion - Muslim Woman Strangles and Stabbs Daughter 40 Times to Exorcise Her

sapphi_snake said:
PullusPardus said:

its just arabic words , i'll clear out their english equivelants

Jinney (or Genie like aladdin ) / Jinn  = demon/ Demons

Shaitan/ Shiateen = devil / Devils

Eblis = Lucifer

Malak / Malika = Angel / Angels

jibrael  = Gabriel

Allah = God

so they're just different names of the same  , though what i find very funny is when people say , muslims worship Allah and we worship God

Question: what is the difference between 'demon' and 'devil'? I typically heart them used as synonymes.

Demons are beings that live in a parallel world with the psychical world, not all bad not all good, just like humans.

a devil is a demon who follow lucifer/eblis

in christianity and judasim, lucifer is a fallen angel, but in islam , lucifer is a demon , not an angel, who's the only one who refused to accept humans (or adam) and refused to bow to him when he came into the world,  because he was made of clay and demons were made of smokeless fire, and because he thinks humans are easy to manipulate , therfore not worthy to be bowed to,  so god made him live forever until the end of times to prove his point that humans are indeed not worthy , and are just wrong doers

when people say THE Shaitan , they mean Satan / Lucifer / The Devil , but when they say Shaitan, or Shiateen , they mean Devils, demons who follow lucifer.



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@Kasz216

Sorry my bad.. Really sleepy :P

 



Kasz216 said:


1) Exorcism by a priest, you just hold someone down while reading from the bible and commanding the demon to leave in the name of god.  As for where the practice comes from I can't really say.  I'd guess this would answer part of your second question though, in that it predates the "Split" therefore most likely all abrhamic religions can drive out demons in the name of god.  In general the abrahamic religions are a lot "nicer" too each other, usually thinking there are some exceptions for each other. 

2) I explained how they "work".    It's a lot like the Placebo effect.  Convince people that by "taking the demon" out of them, that their pain will lessen/their "evil" actions will be less tempting/ Something else.

It often works... at least for the intermediate

3)  A relgious group can claim that demonic possessions only happen where the religion is, because the Devil is only intersted in corrupting the faithfull.  Verus some modern psychologists who have no explination for why DID really only happens with any large numbers in the United Staes.  (Though is increasingly diagnosed in europe.)

Truth is, Dissossiative Identity Disorder is likely CAUSED by therapists who unintentionally coach them to treat each emotion or set of feelings as a "different personality."

 

In Islam it's quite the opposite actually. The devils target the weak ones because they don't read Quran or mentions god's name enough. Devils are hurt by Quran (that's why it's read during exorcism) so they can't harm the faithful who is always in touch with his religion.

Most Muslims who go to the exorcists are not Shiokh, they are the ones who commit lots of sins and believe that devils possessed them easily because they "let their gaurd down", as long as your a Shaikh, you are safe. It seems that who believes he's in danger of being possessed is the ones that seeks exorcism eventually.

Lots of Muslims also believe that Humans can contact the devils. In order to do that you have to curse the god himself, burn the quran, shit on it (seriosly), grow nails, become dirty and all sorts Of Kufr. In Huaxiong's case, his aunt met "eccentric" people who she thought they did something to her. I believe by eccentric he means those same  dirty people who are in contact with the devils. That's why the devil targeted her despite being a devoted Muslim. He was ordered to. There is a good chance that what happened to his aunt started by an obsession about the people she met and their ability to harm her.

I am not convinced that exorcism is part of Islam in the first place. Quran and the thousands of hadeeths don't mention exorcism. We have Hadeeths that talks about armpits hair but zero about exorcism.

 

As for DID. Isn't DID 'not accepted" by many psychiatrists? and the ones that accept it describe it differently too. Some of them believe the whole thing is just about memory gaps. A guy moves the couch, he forgets completely that he moved it and he starts to think that there is someone invisible in his life and so on. So it's not always "2 separate" personalities. I am curious as to why you are referring to DID only. What about psychosis that accompanies LOTS of mental disoders? Each case should be studied separately .



Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:
huaxiong90 said:

Tbh, I have yet to find anything that accurately describes what I saw, and what can be used as a means of understanding exorcisms.

My relative who was exorcised was not experiencing any health issues, and she was a devout Muslim until just the two weeks before the exorcism, after a meeting with some (eccentric) people. She wasn't acting weird or showing signs of illness, she just halted her religious activities altogether. There's too much that happened during the exorcism, but the weirdest part was this:

She apparently came to her senses and got a grip after a while of struggling so as not to hear the quranic verses (no pats were used yet, and during this time she even threw punches until her arms were firmly pinned by her husband). Anyways, she was describing what she felt throughout the whole ordeal (she was unable to speak, and felt as if someone had her throat clenched, amongst many other disturbing things). So the sheikh then gives her the Quran and asks her to recite the verse she spoke of while being exorcised. Then, just like that, her facial expression changes into something I have never seen before, and she refuses to even touch the Koran. And the exorcism went on.

I have seen silly stuff on TV and the sort, but never...and I mean NEVER...have I witnessed something so mind boggling in my whole life. And when it all ended, the next day she was back into her religious duties, and eventually made a full recovery to devoutness.

I don't understand what exactly made you people think she was 'possesed'. Halting religious activities? Just seems like you guys were trying to force your religion on her. In Europe you'd be jailed for that 'exorcism'.

No you wouldn't.

Literally you wouldn't.

Holding the person down actually makes sense by the way, because for unkown reasons, people who go through exorcisims tend to spasm like crazy.  It's literally exactly what they would do to you in the hospital if they expected you might go through violent spams.

Due to that, the only thing you could get in trouble for, would be ruled a needed safeguard in a form of homeopathic medicine.

As for why people go through violent spasms when exoricised... there is honestly no actual decent medical explination for it.  You can come up with a hodgepodge of different reasons why it might happen in diffrent exorcisms but there isn't really a good unifying theory.

Wait, so tying someone against their will and torturing them isn't something that will get you jailed? I did not know that.


Well

A) Nothing described there qualifies as torture.

B) The vast majority of exorcisms happen at a persons request.

C) Exoricims happen a lot more in europe then you'd think... including western europe.  The only times they ever get coverage is when someone dies.  Just like basically every homeopathic or medical procedure for that matter.

A. Not torture. but his relative was clearly being held against her will.

B. Are you including exorcisms that take place inex gay camps? Because otherwise, I've never heard of a situation where a person willingly went through an exorcism (since usually these people can't give consent due to them being possesed and all).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

padib said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:
sapphi_snake said:
padib said:

You're confusing psychosis with religious fanaticism. They play on each other, but the problem this lady had was psychosis that led her to murder her daughter. What those people you know personally suffer from is religious fanaticism, it can be good (enlightened) or it can be bad (ignorant). Fanaticism in and of itself, imho, is not a bad thing.

No, religious fanaticism is inherently bad, and causes nothing but evil.

Nope. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a religious fanatic, he did a great deal of good (understatement). Martin Luther King was a religious fanatic, and so was mother Teresa. Jesus was a religious fanatic and we know what he did (if the gospels are true, which is a likely possibility unless you just want to doubt for the sake of doubting).

As I said, religious fanaticism is only bad when it is paired with ignorance. Irreligious fanaticism follows the same rule.

I don't think you know what religious fanaticism means. None of the people you mentioned there were religious fanatics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism#Popular_Examples_of_Religious_Fanaticism

Religious fanaticism is the result of ignorance.

Religious fanaticism is fanaticism related to a person's, or a group's, devotion to a religion. However, religious fanaticism is a subjective evaluation defined by the culture context that is performing the evaluation. What constitutes fanaticism in another's behavior or belief is determined by the core assumptions of the one doing the evaluation. As such, there is currently no constant academic standard for what defines a fanatical religious position.

You are aware that that kinda invalidates your whole argument, no? You're basically saying that judging whether or not someone is a religious fanatic is something subjective, a relative thing determined by the one doing the evaluation. Therefore you cannot say that those individuals are religious fanatics, other than in your personal opinion, and you cannot expect others to agree with that opinion, since by your definition, religious fanaticism is 'in the eye of the beholder'.

Therefore, with you arguing such relativism, you've rendered any discussion regarding this issue as pointless as a debate regarding which colour is prettiest.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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What I love are the people who automatically jump to conclusions and/or start pointing fingers at who is at "fault" when those people know nothing about context of the religion they're arguing against.



Kasz216 said:

No.

Like I said, isn't really medically explained.

The majority of exorcisms are done at the persons behest by people who were close to them their entire lives.  There really aren't many, if any cases of exorcisms caused against peoples will.

In general, the scientific opinion is that it's one of three things.

1)  I actually forget the scientific name is for it.  Though in general it's described as "Believers effect".  Like how most evangelists spasm when a preist channels into them the word of the lord or whatever they're doing.

It's thought the "Demon possession" might have been born out of this.  IE they made some mistakes that go against what they believe, and rationalized it as being "out of their control" and a demon made them do it.... much how some people rationalize their inability to give up addictions or other bad habits they have.  Demon essentially replaced addiction.  These people are represented by those that have exorcisms, then grow up normal people  of that faith.  (Of which, there actually are quite a bit.)

This might actually be a reason why there are a number of successful exorcisms.   The person suddenly feels "freed" of the demon, tricking them into giving up the negative things they were doing because they suddenly feel like they have way more power and self control. 

That and other "Placebo" like effects anyway, since exorcisms actually are known to stop pain and the like too for some people.

 

2) People trying to get out of trouble.  Like the above, but exorcism is seen as a way to get out of disapointment from others/punishment/hard feelings.  Considering the  great lengths you go through, this is likely expected to be the smallest group.  In general these guys are usually people who are represented by children, who grow up and move away, people who get "possessed"  twice and refuse exoricsm the second time, or just are often "Possessed".Sometimes they can transition into group 1.

3) Remanifestation of the disorder coincidentally during exorcism.  The likelyness of this really depends on the disorder.  The group of people effected like this are probably between groups 1 & 3 and likely are the "failed" cases of exoricisms.

People generally like to blame Dissociative Identity Disorger for the majority of exorcisms... but ironically if you ask most psychologists they would say Dissociative Identity Disoder doesn't really exist or if it does... is extremely rare as there seems to be totally regional.  (IE Split personality disorder/ what most people incorrectly define as schitzophrenia.)  Amusingly DID is kinda like Psychologys version of Demonic possession. 

In 1944, there were 76 cases of DID ever... vs like... I don't even know the number now, but lets just say it's increased by over 100,000% in occurence.  Well, only in the countries that believe in DID.  Just how demon possession generally only happens in countries that believe in it.  Though at least exorcist believers have an excuse for it.  (IE: Targeting the faithful.) 

It's actually considered to not be that high because Exorcism success rates are actually usually pretty high... espiecally in the Catholic Church which mandates that psychiatric evaluations must happen before any exorcism so as to avoid the mentally ill being exorcised.

 

None of those really explains Huaxiong's case.  Most likely people would see it as a case 1 and that the decline in "spirtuality" was mostly internalized and slow leading to an eventually loss in belief which was then put on a demon.

Your points make a lot of sense (no. 1 was actually a story arc on True Blood).

Huxington's case was probably just a woman deciding to not be religious anymore, and then being forced back by her fundementalist intolerant family. As if religious freedom and free thinking aren't already almsot non-existent in Islamic countries...

 

(off topic: so DID isn't actually real?)



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 said:

No.

Like I said, isn't really medically explained.

The majority of exorcisms are done at the persons behest by people who were close to them their entire lives.  There really aren't many, if any cases of exorcisms caused against peoples will.

In general, the scientific opinion is that it's one of three things.

1)  I actually forget the scientific name is for it.  Though in general it's described as "Believers effect".  Like how most evangelists spasm when a preist channels into them the word of the lord or whatever they're doing.

It's thought the "Demon possession" might have been born out of this.  IE they made some mistakes that go against what they believe, and rationalized it as being "out of their control" and a demon made them do it.... much how some people rationalize their inability to give up addictions or other bad habits they have.  Demon essentially replaced addiction.  These people are represented by those that have exorcisms, then grow up normal people  of that faith.  (Of which, there actually are quite a bit.)

This might actually be a reason why there are a number of successful exorcisms.   The person suddenly feels "freed" of the demon, tricking them into giving up the negative things they were doing because they suddenly feel like they have way more power and self control. 

That and other "Placebo" like effects anyway, since exorcisms actually are known to stop pain and the like too for some people.

 

2) People trying to get out of trouble.  Like the above, but exorcism is seen as a way to get out of disapointment from others/punishment/hard feelings.  Considering the  great lengths you go through, this is likely expected to be the smallest group.  In general these guys are usually people who are represented by children, who grow up and move away, people who get "possessed"  twice and refuse exoricsm the second time, or just are often "Possessed".Sometimes they can transition into group 1.

3) Remanifestation of the disorder coincidentally during exorcism.  The likelyness of this really depends on the disorder.  The group of people effected like this are probably between groups 1 & 3 and likely are the "failed" cases of exoricisms.

People generally like to blame Dissociative Identity Disorger for the majority of exorcisms... but ironically if you ask most psychologists they would say Dissociative Identity Disoder doesn't really exist or if it does... is extremely rare as there seems to be totally regional.  (IE Split personality disorder/ what most people incorrectly define as schitzophrenia.)  Amusingly DID is kinda like Psychologys version of Demonic possession. 

In 1944, there were 76 cases of DID ever... vs like... I don't even know the number now, but lets just say it's increased by over 100,000% in occurence.  Well, only in the countries that believe in DID.  Just how demon possession generally only happens in countries that believe in it.  Though at least exorcist believers have an excuse for it.  (IE: Targeting the faithful.) 

It's actually considered to not be that high because Exorcism success rates are actually usually pretty high... espiecally in the Catholic Church which mandates that psychiatric evaluations must happen before any exorcism so as to avoid the mentally ill being exorcised.

 

None of those really explains Huaxiong's case.  Most likely people would see it as a case 1 and that the decline in "spirtuality" was mostly internalized and slow leading to an eventually loss in belief which was then put on a demon.

Your points make a lot of sense (no. 1 was actually a story arc on True Blood).

Huxington's case was probably just a woman deciding to not be religious anymore, and then being forced back by her fundementalist intolerant family. As if religious freedom and free thinking aren't already almsot non-existent in Islamic countries...

 

(off topic: so DID isn't actually real?)



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

huaxiong90 said:
sapphi_snake said:

Wait, so tying someone against their will and torturing them isn't something that will get you jailed? I did not know that.

I really am not sure if you're honestly debating this or not, but I'll assume you're serious, so:

1. There is simply no way she could've been killed. Not to mention, there is no way we could possibly allow such harm to happen. We value human life more than you can imagine...especially that of a family member.

2. We never even laid a hand on her...however, she reacted in a most unusual manner after hearing certain verses, and she turned violent at one point. Just simply keep her pinned until she calms down. She even said her violent reactions were completely against her will (and even said she's aware to what's going on even during this state of 'posession'). From my understanding, people who are diagnosed with illnesses like schizophrenia are not aware to all of their actions.

3. She went for medical and psychiatric help, just fyi, to see if there could be another explanation for this...and it came up with no results. Biggest waste of time ever.

4. If all that isn't enough, and you still want to assume we just wanted to force the religion on her...she wasn't even the initial focus of the exorcism. It was me, my brother, and my mother who were the ones meant to be checked for spirits. Especially my brother. He was the main focus of the sheikh until my aunt just suddenly started having some most unusual spasms after water (it was just sink water taken from the house) was sprinkled at everyone.

I guess Kasz offered the best explanation regardign this issue. I was mainly concerend about the religious freedom thing.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

padib said:

I guess so :B

But really, it all comes down to what you define as religious fanaticism. If you describe it as taking your beliefs to a point where you take action on them in counter-social ways (such as Ghandi's fast), then I believe it is fine so long as it is properly directed. If you define religious fanaticism to be any form of violent behavior in the name of religion then for the most part I can only agree with you that it is counter-positive.

Of course, if you want, we could instead stay with a vague definition of it all :P

Ghandi's actions can't be considered religious fanatism, because he wasn't acting in the name of any religion (I'm not even sure what religion he followed). Those actions were politcally motivated. When I think of religious fanatisicm, I think of hings like the Crusades, or the bombing of abortion clinics. Or Westboro Baptist Church.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)