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Forums - Politics - Protest footage in NY, SHOCKING!

richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:

Of course, if you look at their 14 demands, they certainly aren't against the government or corporations. Instead, they want a lot of heavily left-leaning things such as universal health care, living wages, green energy, and 2 trillion dollars in stimulus. Then they throw in the real crazy stuff like abolishing all held loans by everyone.

One can disagree with a bunch of them.  But the current financial system is sitting on a giant bomb of debt, that stands to not get paid off.  There is a biblical concept of the year of Jubilee, where all debt is forgiven.  This concept is also seen in the area of bankruptcy today.  Something is going to have to be done about the global debt bomb being sat on now.  It is seen with economists that the large amount of debt on the part of Americans is holding the economy back, and that needs to get paid down.  More on the concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

 

Of course, the origins of the whole occupy movement was targeting the federal reserve and the world banking system.  From this came out every single left wing protest angle of course.  I would say better to vent with that, than without.


Jubilee is a fine principal, but you cannot simply visit it on current debts which were created without such an idea being codified into the system. In the case of Jewish law and Jubilee, they knew exactly how many years were left on any agreement until Jubilee, and calculated accordingly.

The reality is that their rage should be directed at the agency that made it illegal to be able to go bankrupt on student loans... AKA the government.

One theory I read about that was very interested about this is that since the government now controls almost all student loans, that its causing a lot of systemic issues with college. For example, it used to be that when you got a student loan via a private entity, your career field was key in recieving funding. Now, it doesn't matter if you go for writing, womens studies, or physics and nuclear engineering... Despite only two of those careers having viable job markets. Because of that, its created an entire class of student with no job. Pretty sad situation if that is a full understanding of the issue. But then again, the government has done stuff like that before in the housing market, and had the same results.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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mrstickball said:

The reality is that their rage should be directed at the agency that made it illegal to be able to go bankrupt on student loans... AKA the government.

I would say there is possibility to make a case that changing the bankruptcy laws on individuals who took out loans under prior conditions, would make the law null and void legally, because the individual factored in the bankruptcy angle when taking out the loan.  

Anyhow, on the whole regarding the Wall Street protests, one can either go, "those wackos... ewww" and see them as an enemy, or see MAYBE if there was some sort of way to reach a common ground somewhere, and get a large enough pool of ticked off people that there would have to be changed.  So long as it becomes a marginalized movement and people don't end up getting together enough, there won't be any change to happen.  Things need to get large enough that politicians at least make a weak attempt to pander.



richardhutnik said:

In mass political movements, one can't expect things to be logical at all.  People who are powered strongly emotionally to go out and protest, will not be consistent.  You see this, for example, in the reactions to Ron Paul.  If you follow what Ron Paul speaks on, it is fairly consistent.  But, when you went Tea Party, the "Ron Paul Revolution" morphed into something else, where it ends up being said "smaller government" and "freedom" but then there is the whole "War on Terror" which then means that personal liberties get reduced in the name of safety, and smaller government ends up being a lie as you need to bloat government to manage a war economy meant to declare preemptive wars against this nation and that to supposedly "secure peace" in the name of Neoconservatism.  Well, in short, it is opposing anything a Democrat does, because they are a Democrat of course.

Sure, but I'm assuming the list of demands posted on their website was compiled by one person or a small handful of people. Some logical consistency there shouldn't be a Herculean feat, although I suppose it still is when you're wallowing in such abject economic illteracy.

Also, I don't recall there being any "War on Terror" element to the tea parties. There were certainly pro-war conservatives who were affiliated with the tea party, but the movement itself did a good job of narrowing its focus to be solely on fiscal conservatism and economic liberalism.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

In mass political movements, one can't expect things to be logical at all.  People who are powered strongly emotionally to go out and protest, will not be consistent.  You see this, for example, in the reactions to Ron Paul.  If you follow what Ron Paul speaks on, it is fairly consistent.  But, when you went Tea Party, the "Ron Paul Revolution" morphed into something else, where it ends up being said "smaller government" and "freedom" but then there is the whole "War on Terror" which then means that personal liberties get reduced in the name of safety, and smaller government ends up being a lie as you need to bloat government to manage a war economy meant to declare preemptive wars against this nation and that to supposedly "secure peace" in the name of Neoconservatism.  Well, in short, it is opposing anything a Democrat does, because they are a Democrat of course.

Sure, but I'm assuming the list of demands posted on their website was compiled by one person or a small handful of people. Some logical consistency there shouldn't be a Herculean feat, although I suppose it still is when you're wallowing in such abject economic illteracy.

Also, I don't recall there being any "War on Terror" element to the tea parties. There were certainly pro-war conservatives who were affiliated with the tea party, but the movement itself did a good job of narrowing its focus to be solely on fiscal conservatism and economic liberalism.

You had a hard time finding pro-War on Terror elements in the Ron Paul movement.  When individuals came into the movement, and morphed into the Tea Party (as it is now), then there as elements of the Neocons in it and have pushed it in that direction:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-02-07/news/27055608_1_sarah-palin-tea-party-convention-massachusetts-senate-race

Sarah Palin was the life of the Tea Party Saturday night.

The former GOP vice presidential candidate teed off on President Obama's leadership, saying a failed attempt to blow up an airliner on Christmas Day was evidence of how he's mishandling the war on terror.

 

http://www.teapartytribune.com/2011/08/10/obamas-milquetoast-islamic-extremism-strategy/

President Barack Obama​’s plan to counter violent extremism is doomed because it puts more importance on protecting Muslim sensitivities than confronting the unvarnished truth about the homegrown jihadist threat.

 

There is debates over support of the Patriot Act, and some other means, but the influx of people not tied to the Ron Paul movement part of the Tea Party have neocon leanings.



richardhutnik said:

There is debates over support of the Patriot Act, and some other means, but the influx of people not tied to the Ron Paul movement part of the Tea Party have neocon leanings.

I shouldn't be surprised to find that the Paul and non-Paul elements of the tea party have different assessments of the threat posed by Islamism and different ideas as to what should be done about it, but a throwaway line in a Palin speech and an article on small, obscure website don't exactly prove me wrong: for a mass movement, the tea party has been remarkably disciplined.

But since polls consistently show that even Republicans have finally soured on military interventionism, and tea party supporters are even less keen on such adventures, I think you're vastly overstating how much credibility and how many followers the neoconservative philosophy has at this point, especially within the tea party. Neoconservatism peaked shortly after 9/11 and went into sharp decline as the Bush administration dragged it through the mud with its staggering incompetence to the point that the very term "neocon" is still used as a slur, albeit one whose actual definition eludes most people who hurl it.



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richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
xS7SxSNIPER said:
Level1Death said:
Arcturus said:
What exactly are they protesting about?

That's what I want to know.


Greedy companys and big Corps that are running this country and the government

You have a number of people, who increasingly feeling they are getting the short end of the stick, and lack of hope, and no one listening to them, coming together to say together they have had enough of what has been going on.

Of course, if you look at their 14 demands, they certainly aren't against the government or corporations. Instead, they want a lot of heavily left-leaning things such as universal health care, living wages, green energy, and 2 trillion dollars in stimulus. Then they throw in the real crazy stuff like abolishing all held loans by everyone.

One can disagree with a bunch of them.  But the current financial system is sitting on a giant bomb of debt, that stands to not get paid off.  There is a biblical concept of the year of Jubilee, where all debt is forgiven.  This concept is also seen in the area of bankruptcy today.  Something is going to have to be done about the global debt bomb being sat on now.  It is seen with economists that the large amount of debt on the part of Americans is holding the economy back, and that needs to get paid down.  More on the concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

 

Of course, the origins of the whole occupy movement was targeting the federal reserve and the world banking system.  From this came out every single left wing protest angle of course.  I would say better to vent with that, than without.

So your plan to avoid the giant bomb of debt in the future is to set it off in the present?



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

There is debates over support of the Patriot Act, and some other means, but the influx of people not tied to the Ron Paul movement part of the Tea Party have neocon leanings.

I shouldn't be surprised to find that the Paul and non-Paul elements of the tea party have different assessments of the threat posed by Islamism and different ideas as to what should be done about it, but a throwaway line in a Palin speech and an article on small, obscure website don't exactly prove me wrong: for a mass movement, the tea party has been remarkably disciplined.

But since polls consistently show that even Republicans have finally soured on military interventionism, and tea party supporters are even less keen on such adventures, I think you're vastly overstating how much credibility and how many followers the neoconservative philosophy has at this point, especially within the tea party. Neoconservatism peaked shortly after 9/11 and went into sharp decline as the Bush administration dragged it through the mud with its staggering incompetence to the point that the very term "neocon" is still used as a slur, albeit one whose actual definition eludes most people who hurl it.

The Tea Party got its start out of the remains of the Ron Paul campaign, so I would say it makes sense that it is relatively organized.  The Ron Paul campaign paved the way for post-2008 for organizing on the Internet and so on.  





 

Looks like Anonymous is getting arrested too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drJWxMLrpE0



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