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A quick Google shows that in 2006, the average tax return was $670. If you multiply that by $300,000,000 people, you get $201 billion in tax returns that the government has to set aside funding for.



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Eomund said:
Final-Fan said:
Andir said:
Final-Fan said:
But that doesn't change the fact that the personal income tax is not one of the taxes contributing to the current price of goods. It shouldn't be, anyway, as far as I can see. So the prices would go up in response to the amount of the personal income tax (and other taxes not currently reflected in prices) being factored into prices.

But it is. That 22% is what companies pay to accountants and lawyers to maintain IRS compliance. You take this away and the company has less overhead. It surely won't reduce the price of goods by 22%, but it reduces the cost of doing business. The 23% is simply to replace the current bracketted tax system (that collects 28% or more from the citizens.) In doing so, you reduce both the cost of running a business, and the cost of running the country (by not requiring a full blown team of IRS accountants and support) thus reducing the amount needed to collect in taxes and cut the amount needed to regulate and legislate the handling of money. Over time, the 23% will likely fluctuate (just as sales taxes do / I'm also assuming this isn't fixed, sorry for the ignorance on this) to grant funding for whatever inititives are set forth or to spur the economy just like the current interest rates do.

So, in summary. Replace the 28%+ tax bracketed system with a flat 23% tax that will cover the current expenses just as the bracketed system does. After the current year taxes are collected, next years funding will be at hundreds of billions more agile (lower Treasury funding to cover tax returns), that can be used for things like debt repaying, social security, etc. You reduce the cost of doing business by removing the tax compliance burden, thus enabling competitive pricing even more, or allowing the hiring of more people. The next budget meeting would simply be, do we need to raise this flat tax by .1% to bring in more funding or reduce it by .1% to relax spending?

@Entroper: thanks


The cost of compliance would go down, yes. But what would the cost of tax evasion be? Studies indicate that any sales tax that rises above 10% sees rampant tax evasion, and that's (I believe) the EXCLUSIVE number. Even the VAT in European countries, which is much less tempting to tax evaders and much easier to detect evasion of, has a problem in tax evasion which becomes very serious at about 20%. (Again, I think, exclusive.)

Here's some food for thought:
"Most importantly, the sales tax would generate tremendous opportunities for evasion. For example, in the income tax, the rate of evasion is around 15 percent. But income where taxes are withheld and reported to government by a third party has evasion rates of around 5 percent. For income where taxes are not withheld and there is no cross-reporting, evasion is around 50 percent. Since the sales tax would feature no withholding and no cross-reporting, the possibility of high evasion rates needs to be taken quite seriously."
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1998/03taxes_gale.aspx

The 23% inclusive (30% exclusive) FairTax plan allows for a tax evasion rate of ZERO.

P.S. I presume you realize that "28% income tax --> 23% FairTax" =/= "5% less taxes"?

OK Final, I think I have your answer about both Tax Evasion rates and the revenue-neutral status of the FairTax.

First lets start with the Tax Evasion question. This is a lenghty report called "The FairTax reduces complexity, compliance costs, and noncompliance" http://www.fairtax.org/site/DocServer/TheFairTaxReducesComplexityComplianceCostsAndNoncomplian.pdf

Yes, this document is from FairTax.org but it is accurate in its portrayal of current noncompliance with the current income tax structure. You can take or leave its proposal of FairTax compliance, but it does raise one very interesting point: the number of tax filers under the FairTax would reduce by 80%. Thus you would only need a small portion of "watch-dog" agents to verify tax compliance.

Another note from that document is the total tax compliance costs of the current tax code. I know I have said this before, but it bears saying again. America, as a whole,  spends 6 billion hours and $265 billion in the costs to just comply with the current tax system. That is the equivalent of a 22.2% surcharge on the amount of income taxes collected! For another comparison the $265 billion is costs to comply is roughly the same amount as America has given in charitible donations... that is messed up. (for source see previous posts)  Another document discussing only the compliance costs of current vs. FairTax is this: http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/WhatTheFederalTaxSystemIsCostingYou.pdf

Again even if you take their assertions with a grain of salt, you have to recognize that our current system is broken. Also note that the cost of collecting a retail sales tax currently costs businesses between 2%-3.8% of either the taxes collected, or the business' revenue (it wasn't very clear on that point). The point still holds that collecting sales tax is much less overhead than the current tax system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Now for the next topic, the revenue neutral claim of the FairTax. This document is posted on the FairTax.org website but is not calculated by them. The economists that have calculated this are very well respected and would have no reason to distort the truth (as some people might/could come to think). http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Notes%20article%20on%20FT%20rate.pdf

This document goes through the FairTax proposal and looks at the revenue of both the current tax code and the FairTax. It is extremely long and has lots of mathematical explanation of the FairTax and current tax code. It is not impossible to read through and understand (I am a testiment to that), you have to know basic algebra and have a strong mathematical fortitude to wade through all the different equations. In the end they calculate that the rate of the FairTax would need to be 23.82% to meet the estimates of FY 2007 current tax revenue. However that is assuming that the FairTax will not be a boon to the economy as they believe it could be. In which case if the FairTax increased the taxbase by about 3% the 23% would still be perfectly revenue neutral.


I'm afraid that the PDF does nothing at all to allay my fears of a high tax evasion rate under any large sales tax collected solely at the point of sale.  This is not because I am skeptical of their explanation but because they have none. 

That document's only fact-based reason for assuming a low evasion rate is based on a 2000 study of Minnesota's sales tax (6% price-exclusive) that had a 10% evasion rate.  This is (A) more than ZERO which the last FairTax plan with which I am familiar was assuming, and (B) hopelessly naive to think that evasion of a 30% tax (exclusive) would not be any higher than that of a 6% tax.  Also, the FairTax would be applicable to many, many more items than current sales taxes -- more opportunities to cheat -- but not to ANY business-use items -- more opportunities to cheat. 

"One study found that, in Florida, where sales taxes have never exceeded 6 percent, 5 percent of all purchases made with business exemption certificates were used inappropriately to exempt personal consumption from taxes." 
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1998/03taxes_gale.aspx

How many people would you expect to cheat on a 6% tax?  How many more at 30%? 

What evidence is there that a retail sales tax of 30% price-exclusive would not have drastically higher evasion rates than the relatively evasion-resistant VAT taxes that are already having problems in Europe at (more or less) 20%?

An even better question:  Many of those European countries switched from retail sales tax to VAT in the late 1960s.  I've heard that this was to cut down on tax evasion.  Again, these rates are all much lower than that proposed by the FairTax.  I haven't yet found confirmation on that reason for switching, but they must have had some reason.  Why would the United States not have that same reason?  Why would the United States not have an even worse problem with tax evasion? 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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Andir said:
Final-Fan said:
DKII said:
I think the main idea behind the 28% income tax changing to the 23% "Fair"Tax and still being revenue neutral is a little misleading, since revenue would go down but that the costs of administering the tax code would go down as well to offset that. Regardless if the number were 28% sales tax would that really suddenly eliminate your opposition to it?

But 28% might be a more accurate reflection of the necessary amount to be revenue-neutral.  (A different topic.)

That would actually be way too much in taxes.  As it is now, people recoup some of the taxes paid every year in tax returns.  The IRS mails you a check for the amount you overpaid (and is a huge chunk of the Treasury's mandatory funding... it's some 200 billion a year if I read it right.)  This is probably the easiest way to see if you will be paying more in taxes.  Take your tax bracket percentage, figure out how much you get back, subtract that from taxes paid and you determine how much in general tax you paid.  Compare that to an estimate of how much in taxes you would pay throughout the year in a sales tax of 23% and you have your answer.


So now you're saying we wouldn't see much savings from the Treasury department?  Anyway, I'm not saying it would be 28% necessarily; I'm saying that 23% is too low.  And also that it's 23% of a different number than the income tax is 28% of, and also that I'm not sure where you're getting the 28% number at all except as the median tax bracket, which is meaningless to this discussion. 


Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

oh this is american...doesn't concern me.



Final-Fan said:
Eomund said:

OK Final, I think I have your answer about both Tax Evasion rates and the revenue-neutral status of the FairTax.

First lets start with the Tax Evasion question. This is a lenghty report called "The FairTax reduces complexity, compliance costs, and noncompliance" http://www.fairtax.org/site/DocServer/TheFairTaxReducesComplexityComplianceCostsAndNoncomplian.pdf

Yes, this document is from FairTax.org but it is accurate in its portrayal of current noncompliance with the current income tax structure. You can take or leave its proposal of FairTax compliance, but it does raise one very interesting point: the number of tax filers under the FairTax would reduce by 80%. Thus you would only need a small portion of "watch-dog" agents to verify tax compliance.

Another note from that document is the total tax compliance costs of the current tax code. I know I have said this before, but it bears saying again. America, as a whole, spends 6 billion hours and $265 billion in the costs to just comply with the current tax system. That is the equivalent of a 22.2% surcharge on the amount of income taxes collected! For another comparison the $265 billion is costs to comply is roughly the same amount as America has given in charitible donations... that is messed up. (for source see previous posts) Another document discussing only the compliance costs of current vs. FairTax is this: http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/WhatTheFederalTaxSystemIsCostingYou.pdf

Again even if you take their assertions with a grain of salt, you have to recognize that our current system is broken. Also note that the cost of collecting a retail sales tax currently costs businesses between 2%-3.8% of either the taxes collected, or the business' revenue (it wasn't very clear on that point). The point still holds that collecting sales tax is much less overhead than the current tax system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now for the next topic, the revenue neutral claim of the FairTax. This document is posted on the FairTax.org website but is not calculated by them. The economists that have calculated this are very well respected and would have no reason to distort the truth (as some people might/could come to think). http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Notes%20article%20on%20FT%20rate.pdf

This document goes through the FairTax proposal and looks at the revenue of both the current tax code and the FairTax. It is extremely long and has lots of mathematical explanation of the FairTax and current tax code. It is not impossible to read through and understand (I am a testiment to that), you have to know basic algebra and have a strong mathematical fortitude to wade through all the different equations. In the end they calculate that the rate of the FairTax would need to be 23.82% to meet the estimates of FY 2007 current tax revenue. However that is assuming that the FairTax will not be a boon to the economy as they believe it could be. In which case if the FairTax increased the taxbase by about 3% the 23% would still be perfectly revenue neutral.


I'm afraid that the PDF does nothing at all to allay my fears of a high tax evasion rate under any large sales tax collected solely at the point of sale. This is not because I am skeptical of their explanation but because they have none.

That document's only fact-based reason for assuming a low evasion rate is based on a 2000 study of Minnesota's sales tax (6% price-exclusive) that had a 10% evasion rate. This is (A) more than ZERO which the last FairTax plan with which I am familiar was assuming, and (B) hopelessly naive to think that evasion of a 30% tax (exclusive) would not be any higher than that of a 6% tax. Also, the FairTax would be applicable to many, many more items than current sales taxes -- more opportunities to cheat -- but not to ANY business-use items -- more opportunities to cheat.

"One study found that, in Florida, where sales taxes have never exceeded 6 percent, 5 percent of all purchases made with business exemption certificates were used inappropriately to exempt personal consumption from taxes."
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1998/03taxes_gale.aspx

How many people would you expect to cheat on a 6% tax? How many more at 30%?

What evidence is there that a retail sales tax of 30% price-exclusive would not have drastically higher evasion rates than the relatively evasion-resistant VAT taxes that are already having problems in Europe at (more or less) 20%?

An even better question: Many of those European countries switched from retail sales tax to VAT in the late 1960s. I've heard that this was to cut down on tax evasion. Again, these rates are all much lower than that proposed by the FairTax. I haven't yet found confirmation on that reason for switching, but they must have had some reason. Why would the United States not have that same reason? Why would the United States not have an even worse problem with tax evasion?

You raise a valid point. One that I do not have a concrete answer for. But let me ask you this, under current law tax evasion is about 15%, I believe. What constitutes tax evasion under current law? There are several ways to do it, namely misrepresenting your income on your 1040. There are also many other ways to cheat this income tax system. But for the sake of simplicity lets say that tax evasion = misrepresenting your income on your 1040.

How can you fraud the FairTax? I mean you as an individual. I understand how a company that collects the FairTax could evade it, but the reason why they would want to isn't as clear to me. To evade it, they could simply misrepresent their sales figures and pocket some of the extra tax as free income. But this could easily be sniffed out with some simple fact checking, similar to what businesses have to go through today.

Now how would an individual cheat the FairTax? They could create a fake business and claim everything as a business expense. They could try to buy things from the wholesaler whose sales have [edit] no FairTax attached. They could try to get some sort of exemption at the POS (note: I do not know if non-profit companies will also pay the FairTax, but I seem to remember that there are no exemptions to it. That is what the Prebate is for.).

In any case these things require that you either have a business front (legitimate or otherwise) to purchase from the wholesaler/supplier, or that you have some sort of tax exempt status (again I don't know if there would be said status). Is there anything else you can think of? If you can I will gladly add it to the list.

Now since 80% of the FairTax would be collected by 20% of the businesses, you can bet those businesses in the 20% (Wal-Mart, Target... etc.) will not life a finger to help you around the FairTax, as they would be watched hawkishly. So the question remains, what will be the evasion rate of the FairTax? I don't know, but probably less than the 20% of the remaining FairTax to be collected.

I say less than 20% because in order to buy from a vendor tax-free (as all qualified business will be able to) you must have the proper permits. You might need to keep those permits handy to show for transactions with your vendors. Also each business that collects the FairTax, or is hs one of these permits, must file monthly/quarterly (depending on your sales volume) statements with your state declaring how much business you did and how much FairTax you collected.

Since each business that collects the FairTax gets 0.25% of the collected amount, known as the Administrative Credit, they would have little problem declaring the full amount collected, as that would be covering the costs of collecting the FairTax (it would also be easy free money). Now each business sends the FairTax less 0.25% (or 99.75%) to the State for proper accounting. This process of sending the sales tax to the state is already done and would not be too much extra hassle. The States would collect all FairTax revenue from all businesses within its borders and take another 0.25% Administrative Credit from the FairTax collected. So the States each get an added bonus from this and would not mind an increase in revenue either. The Federal Government would then receive the FairTax minus the two Administrative Credits removed. (this is a very minor side detail but of the total FairTax collected the Feds would get 99.500625%. (FairTax - AC[1]) - AC[2])

Anyways, that is my reasoning to say that the FairTax will be easier to comply with, and easier to catch the cheaters. Both of those would mean tax evasion would go down. I say all of this with confidence because retail prices will remain very close to current prices, and may decrease in the long run. If, however, prices were to increase dramatically, I would agree with you that there would be much attempting to get around the FairTax.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Sqrl said:
Entroper said:
Andir said:

The next budget meeting would simply be, do we need to raise this flat tax by .1% to bring in more funding or reduce it by .1% to relax spending?


There's an advantage I didn't even think of when considering a FairTax or flat tax: Tax hikes and cuts are obvious. You can't screw around with the details because there are no details.


Wow, for some reason I hadn't though of that either...thats actually really nice...obviously not a reason on its own but still....



 

 It is a reason on its own. Fair Tax can be likened to a very large pair of scissors, and their victim would be congress' taxticles. (Like what I did there?). With the Fair Tax lobbyist cannot make closed door deals and congress could not use tax code to control constituent behavior. One of the Fair Things about the Fair Tax is that it takes all the sleaze out of the tax code and removes loopholes. 

Also I suggest those who fancy themselves critics of the Fair Tax do something before debating on forums. The something is called research. The bill itself is the result of over $25 Million dollars and over a decade of independent [from congress] economic research. The numbers work, very well. I recommend the following research tools.

1) http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-25

Oh yes, the actual text of the Bill. Read it. Knowledge is power.

 

2)http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=bxgy_cc_b_img_a

there are those who after reading number 1 may go "HUH??", well thankfully the sponsoring congressmen (Linder) and advocate (Boortz) have taken the time to spell it out. The book is entertaining, but gives plenty of easy to understand explanations. 

 

3)http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=bxgy_cc_b_img_b

Boortz's next book is not out until Feb 12, but the book responds to the new wave of criticism the Fair Tax has received since Huckabee announced his support of it.



_____________________________________________________

Check out the VGC Crunch this Podcast and Blog at www.tsnetcast.com

Eomund said:
Final-Fan said:
Eomund said:

OK Final, I think I have your answer about both Tax Evasion rates and the revenue-neutral status of the FairTax.

First lets start with the Tax Evasion question. This is a lenghty report called "The FairTax reduces complexity, compliance costs, and noncompliance" http://www.fairtax.org/site/DocServer/TheFairTaxReducesComplexityComplianceCostsAndNoncomplian.pdf

Yes, this document is from FairTax.org but it is accurate in its portrayal of current noncompliance with the current income tax structure. You can take or leave its proposal of FairTax compliance, but it does raise one very interesting point: the number of tax filers under the FairTax would reduce by 80%. Thus you would only need a small portion of "watch-dog" agents to verify tax compliance.

[edit: Final-Fan excised stuff covering other topics for purposes of brevity.]


I'm afraid that the PDF does nothing at all to allay my fears of a high tax evasion rate under any large sales tax collected solely at the point of sale. This is not because I am skeptical of their explanation but because they have none.

That document's only fact-based reason for assuming a low evasion rate is based on a 2000 study of Minnesota's sales tax (6% price-exclusive) that had a 10% evasion rate. This is (A) more than ZERO which the last FairTax plan with which I am familiar was assuming, and (B) hopelessly naive to think that evasion of a 30% tax (exclusive) would not be any higher than that of a 6% tax. Also, the FairTax would be applicable to many, many more items than current sales taxes -- more opportunities to cheat -- but not to ANY business-use items -- more opportunities to cheat.

"One study found that, in Florida, where sales taxes have never exceeded 6 percent, 5 percent of all purchases made with business exemption certificates were used inappropriately to exempt personal consumption from taxes."
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1998/03taxes_gale.aspx

How many people would you expect to cheat on a 6% tax? How many more at 30%?

What evidence is there that a retail sales tax of 30% price-exclusive would not have drastically higher evasion rates than the relatively evasion-resistant VAT taxes that are already having problems in Europe at (more or less) 20%?

An even better question: Many of those European countries switched from retail sales tax to VAT in the late 1960s. I've heard that this was to cut down on tax evasion. Again, these rates are all much lower than that proposed by the FairTax. I haven't yet found confirmation on that reason for switching, but they must have had some reason. Why would the United States not have that same reason? Why would the United States not have an even worse problem with tax evasion?

You raise a valid point. One that I do not have a concrete answer for. But let me ask you this, under current law tax evasion is about 15%, I believe. What constitutes tax evasion under current law? There are several ways to do it, namely misrepresenting your income on your 1040. There are also many other ways to cheat this income tax system. But for the sake of simplicity lets say that tax evasion = misrepresenting your income on your 1040.

How can you fraud the FairTax? I mean you as an individual. I understand how a company that collects the FairTax could evade it, but the reason why they would want to isn't as clear to me. To evade it, they could simply misrepresent their sales figures and pocket some of the extra tax as free income. But this could easily be sniffed out with some simple fact checking, similar to what businesses have to go through today.

Now how would an individual cheat the FairTax? They could create a fake business and claim everything as a business expense. They could try to buy things from the wholesaler whose sales have [edit] no FairTax attached. They could try to get some sort of exemption at the POS (note: I do not know if non-profit companies will also pay the FairTax, but I seem to remember that there are no exemptions to it. That is what the Prebate is for.).

In any case these things require that you either have a business front (legitimate or otherwise) to purchase from the wholesaler/supplier, or that you have some sort of tax exempt status (again I don't know if there would be said status). Is there anything else you can think of? If you can I will gladly add it to the list.

Now since 80% of the FairTax would be collected by 20% of the businesses, you can bet those businesses in the 20% (Wal-Mart, Target... etc.) will not life a finger to help you around the FairTax, as they would be watched hawkishly. So the question remains, what will be the evasion rate of the FairTax? I don't know, but probably less than the 20% of the remaining FairTax to be collected.

I say less than 20% because in order to buy from a vendor tax-free (as all qualified business will be able to) you must have the proper permits. You might need to keep those permits handy to show for transactions with your vendors. Also each business that collects the FairTax, or is hs one of these permits, must file monthly/quarterly (depending on your sales volume) statements with your state declaring how much business you did and how much FairTax you collected.

Since each business that collects the FairTax gets 0.25% of the collected amount, known as the Administrative Credit, they would have little problem declaring the full amount collected, as that would be covering the costs of collecting the FairTax (it would also be easy free money). Now each business sends the FairTax less 0.25% (or 99.75%) to the State for proper accounting. This process of sending the sales tax to the state is already done and would not be too much extra hassle. The States would collect all FairTax revenue from all businesses within its borders and take another 0.25% Administrative Credit from the FairTax collected. So the States each get an added bonus from this and would not mind an increase in revenue either. The Federal Government would then receive the FairTax minus the two Administrative Credits removed. (this is a very minor side detail but of the total FairTax collected the Feds would get 99.500625%. (FairTax - AC[1]) - AC[2])

Anyways, that is my reasoning to say that the FairTax will be easier to comply with, and easier to catch the cheaters. Both of those would mean tax evasion would go down. I say all of this with confidence because retail prices will remain very close to current prices, and may decrease in the long run. If, however, prices were to increase dramatically, I would agree with you that there would be much attempting to get around the FairTax.

[edit: Included quote-nest. I kinda wanted to keep the size down but I REALLY don't want anyone to lose track of things...]

Eomund, I just want to say two things in response to your most recent post:

1. It seems to me that almost all of your explanation can be boiled down to "the tax will be collected by/from businesses who won't cheat and will be easier to watch anyway" (please do correct me if this is wrong) which flies in the face of the reality of VAT evasion in Europe. How do you explain this discrepancy? (Especially since the VAT is more evasion-resistant than a simple retail sales tax.) I also do not see any rebuttal to my assertion that, if there is a 10% evasion rate on a 6% sales tax, there is likely to be a much greater evasion rate on a 30% sales tax, due to the 400% greater incentive to cheat.

2. You continue to say that prices would not rise very much. This is FLAT-OUT IMPOSSIBLE since the amount of taxes currently collected via the income tax and other taxes currently not incorporated into the price of goods is going to be tacked on to the price of goods. (I don't buy the argument that the personal income taxes (as opposed to, say, corporate income taxes) are part of the "embedded cost". After all, it's YOU that pays that tax, not any supplier.) You can say that the inflated prices will be compensated for by inflated paychecks, but (tax-inclusive) prices WILL rise.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Flat Tax, Fair Tax what the difference?? The government is going to get your money one way or another. You not going to be saving any money in the long run. If the gov't dosen't get the money it needs from us, it will just raise the tax. So, the Fair tax could start out at 20% and then it could raise to 30%. My point is that the gov't is always going to get the money that it needs. Thats how things get done.

The real question should be, do you want a President who believes Creationism should be taught in schools.



EMULATION is the past.....NOW.......B_E_L_I_E_V_E

 

 


darklich13 said:
Flat Tax, Fair Tax what the difference?? The government is going to get your money one way or another. You not going to be saving any money in the long run. If the gov't dosen't get the money it needs from us, it will just raise the tax. So, the Fair tax could start out at 20% and then it could raise to 30%. My point is that the gov't is always going to get the money that it needs. Thats how things get done.

The real question should be, do you want a President who believes Creationism should be taught in schools.

 No, The real question is, Why the heck are you bringing up the Presidential election and Creationism in the same sentence?! If this is an attack on Mike Huckabee, go get your facts straight. This debate here has been a very civil debate and has kept on track until your post. Unless you have something to add to the debate, please don't post.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

There have been a few other "out-of-nowhere" posts like his in this thread. The best thing to do is ignore them unless they make a useful point.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!