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Forums - Politics Discussion - Should Nato members have to respect one anothers alliances?

 

Should Nato prevent members from attacking each others allies?

Yes 17 48.57%
 
No 13 37.14%
 
Other (Explain in thread) 5 14.29%
 
Total:35
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:


Ha, not as interesting as India vs. Chia, or USA vs. Russia

US Vs Russa?

The US has 9 times the aircraft as Russia, and they're a step ahead technology wise... and even when the T-50 is ready for more production it's not quite in the league as the US planes.


Ahem...

Combat aircraft (2010 figures):

US 2970 --> mostly F16, F15 and A10

China 2344 --> mostly Q5, J7, J11

Russia 1509 --> mostly SU24/25/27/30/35 and MIG29/31

F15 and F16 are not a step ahead technology wise... F18 and F117 were a flop and were retired.

Where in the world are you getting those numbers from?

The Airforce alone has over 2,000 fighters and 5,000 total planes   (Each branch of the armed forces has their own planes and there is much more then fighters that have offensive capabilties.)

Aside from which... F22.



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Kasz216 said:
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:


Ha, not as interesting as India vs. Chia, or USA vs. Russia

US Vs Russa?

The US has 9 times the aircraft as Russia, and they're a step ahead technology wise... and even when the T-50 is ready for more production it's not quite in the league as the US planes.


Ahem...

Combat aircraft (2010 figures):

US 2970 --> mostly F16, F15 and A10

China 2344 --> mostly Q5, J7, J11

Russia 1509 --> mostly SU24/25/27/30/35 and MIG29/31

F15 and F16 are not a step ahead technology wise... F18 and F117 were a flop and were retired.

Where in the world are you getting those numbers from?

The Airforce alone has over 2,000 fighters and 5,000 total planes   (Each branch of the armed forces has their own planes and there is much more then fighters that have offensive capabilties.)

Aside from which... F22.

From FlightGlobal 2010 report: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/reports_pdf/world-air-forces-2010-78877.aspx

They have 160 F22, that's ~5%, but the bulk is still made up of F15/F16/A10 for the air force and F18 for the navy, that is 87% of the total.



they continue to threaten cyprus as well, so its not just israel.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles said:
they continue to threaten cyprus as well, so its not just israel.


No it's the oil & gas that sit on the bottom of the sea between Cyprus and Israel.



Booh! said:
MrBubbles said:
they continue to threaten cyprus as well, so its not just israel.


No it's the oil & gas that sit on the bottom of the sea between Cyprus and Israel.


pretty sure they werent threatening the oil...



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

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Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
GuiltySpartan77 said:
Israel would destroy turkey in a war especially sense they are backed by the US and UK.


Turkey is no Palestine or Iraq, their military capabilities are faaaar biger than both of them combined. They are successors of the biggest most power full muslim empire after all

Yeah, it'd be an interesting war... well assuming Israel doesn't go with the  "We have nukes" option... and i'm not sure the US would get involved outside of sanctions.

I'd think Turkey would actually win just by out "swarming" them.  They actually have a similar number of tanks and military aircrafts with the Israel ones being a bit better quality in both, but all the extra "small" tank busters and anti-aircraft missles would probably be the differnece maker, along with larger troops and no doubt uprisings in Palestine.

I mean, if Turkey were forced to land in israel via sea,  Israel might win, but i feel like Turkey would have no problem getting permission to move across the land through Syria and Lebanon

It depends on the war aims. If Israel was fighting from being occupied then it would probably fight with more vigour + it has nukes. If it was just skimishes then at sea probably Turkey as they have a much bigger and more capable navy. I know Turkey has a much bigger army but that's not enough to defeat a state of the art defender. I can see the Israeli airforce winning the airwar and pounding the Turkish army which would lack effective aircover if they were to lose the airwar. Sure Israel would lose a lot of men and equipment but unless Turkey pulls a 'Yom Kippur' I doubt Israel would 'lose' the war and a ceasefire would be negotiated. Also Turkey doesn't have a big force projection capability, it's army was built around defending against the Russians and also battling Kurdish seperatists.

I doubt any other countries would get involved militarily though like you say Syria may allow Turkey to transit it's territory.

Still from a Generals pov it would be an interesting war as both are well trained and equipped to Western standards.

I was working off a Turkish invasion.

I could see the Turkish Navy being able to cause some trouble to the Israeli air force actually, I believe their ships have some good anti-aicraft capabilties and they could basically shell Israeli airbases constantly.  It would take a three way split to work though, Bombardment through the sea, infantry from the north and airpower from the sky, to split up the Israeli airforce enough to work though.

Then again I wonder what kind of protection Turkey really has against the modern missles of Israel.


It would be interesting because we only really have vague ideas on what's important in a modern war between two near equals.

Horrifying... but interesting.


Ha, not as interesting as India vs. Chia, or USA vs. Russia

US Vs Russa?

The US has 9 times the aircraft as Russia, and they're a step ahead technology wise... and even when the T-50 is ready for more production it's not quite in the league as the US planes.

The US also has 10 times the Navy, and an even more advanced navy, meaning what few Naval ports Russia has, will be blockaded pretty eaisly, and... the armies are about even.  It'd just be a matter of US ground forces being supported by planes and the US 11 cariers...

Then you take into account the US has a slight military numbers advantage, larger population, larger military reserves and larger economy....

 

India vs China... I don't know enough about Indian Technology.  I wouldn't expect a landwar vs china to go well, when your right on the border though.

 


Yeah that's what Hitler though when he launched Barbarosa and and before Hitler, it was Napoleon. I think USA would harm Russia a lot, but they wouldn't defeat it (enter moscow). USA would have more succes on Russian soil than russians would on american. I believe whichever country would be defensive would win. I mean, USA  wasn't very successful against poor equipped Viet Cong, I doubt they would be much more successful against much much MUCH better equipped russians



Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
GuiltySpartan77 said:
Israel would destroy turkey in a war especially sense they are backed by the US and UK.


Turkey is no Palestine or Iraq, their military capabilities are faaaar biger than both of them combined. They are successors of the biggest most power full muslim empire after all

Yeah, it'd be an interesting war... well assuming Israel doesn't go with the  "We have nukes" option... and i'm not sure the US would get involved outside of sanctions.

I'd think Turkey would actually win just by out "swarming" them.  They actually have a similar number of tanks and military aircrafts with the Israel ones being a bit better quality in both, but all the extra "small" tank busters and anti-aircraft missles would probably be the differnece maker, along with larger troops and no doubt uprisings in Palestine.

I mean, if Turkey were forced to land in israel via sea,  Israel might win, but i feel like Turkey would have no problem getting permission to move across the land through Syria and Lebanon

It depends on the war aims. If Israel was fighting from being occupied then it would probably fight with more vigour + it has nukes. If it was just skimishes then at sea probably Turkey as they have a much bigger and more capable navy. I know Turkey has a much bigger army but that's not enough to defeat a state of the art defender. I can see the Israeli airforce winning the airwar and pounding the Turkish army which would lack effective aircover if they were to lose the airwar. Sure Israel would lose a lot of men and equipment but unless Turkey pulls a 'Yom Kippur' I doubt Israel would 'lose' the war and a ceasefire would be negotiated. Also Turkey doesn't have a big force projection capability, it's army was built around defending against the Russians and also battling Kurdish seperatists.

I doubt any other countries would get involved militarily though like you say Syria may allow Turkey to transit it's territory.

Still from a Generals pov it would be an interesting war as both are well trained and equipped to Western standards.

I was working off a Turkish invasion.

I could see the Turkish Navy being able to cause some trouble to the Israeli air force actually, I believe their ships have some good anti-aicraft capabilties and they could basically shell Israeli airbases constantly.  It would take a three way split to work though, Bombardment through the sea, infantry from the north and airpower from the sky, to split up the Israeli airforce enough to work though.

Then again I wonder what kind of protection Turkey really has against the modern missles of Israel.


It would be interesting because we only really have vague ideas on what's important in a modern war between two near equals.

Horrifying... but interesting.


Ha, not as interesting as India vs. Chia, or USA vs. Russia

US Vs Russa?

The US has 9 times the aircraft as Russia, and they're a step ahead technology wise... and even when the T-50 is ready for more production it's not quite in the league as the US planes.

The US also has 10 times the Navy, and an even more advanced navy, meaning what few Naval ports Russia has, will be blockaded pretty eaisly, and... the armies are about even.  It'd just be a matter of US ground forces being supported by planes and the US 11 cariers...

Then you take into account the US has a slight military numbers advantage, larger population, larger military reserves and larger economy....

 

India vs China... I don't know enough about Indian Technology.  I wouldn't expect a landwar vs china to go well, when your right on the border though.

 


Yeah that's what Hitler though when he launched Barbarosa and and before Hitler, it was Napoleon. I think USA would harm Russia a lot, but they wouldn't defeat it (enter moscow). USA would have more succes on Russian soil than russians would on american. I believe whichever country would be defensive would win. I mean, USA  wasn't very successful against poor equipped Viet Cong, I doubt they would be much more successful against much much MUCH better equipped russians

Actually, the US was EXTREMELY successful vs the viet cong.

It was something like a 3 to 1 casaulty ratio despite the fact that the US decided to fight a nearly fully defensive war and that we were supporting an ally that had numerous NLF supporters in it.

It would of been the equilvent of Iraq.... if instead of taking out Sadam Hussein, the US only took half the country, and refused to invade the second half.

Except, not even that bad, since the US armed forces is a lot larger then it was pre-draft.

 

The US could likely "take over" Russia, now holding it after the war was one... that's a different story.



Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
GuiltySpartan77 said:
Israel would destroy turkey in a war especially sense they are backed by the US and UK.


Turkey is no Palestine or Iraq, their military capabilities are faaaar biger than both of them combined. They are successors of the biggest most power full muslim empire after all

Yeah, it'd be an interesting war... well assuming Israel doesn't go with the  "We have nukes" option... and i'm not sure the US would get involved outside of sanctions.

I'd think Turkey would actually win just by out "swarming" them.  They actually have a similar number of tanks and military aircrafts with the Israel ones being a bit better quality in both, but all the extra "small" tank busters and anti-aircraft missles would probably be the differnece maker, along with larger troops and no doubt uprisings in Palestine.

I mean, if Turkey were forced to land in israel via sea,  Israel might win, but i feel like Turkey would have no problem getting permission to move across the land through Syria and Lebanon

It depends on the war aims. If Israel was fighting from being occupied then it would probably fight with more vigour + it has nukes. If it was just skimishes then at sea probably Turkey as they have a much bigger and more capable navy. I know Turkey has a much bigger army but that's not enough to defeat a state of the art defender. I can see the Israeli airforce winning the airwar and pounding the Turkish army which would lack effective aircover if they were to lose the airwar. Sure Israel would lose a lot of men and equipment but unless Turkey pulls a 'Yom Kippur' I doubt Israel would 'lose' the war and a ceasefire would be negotiated. Also Turkey doesn't have a big force projection capability, it's army was built around defending against the Russians and also battling Kurdish seperatists.

I doubt any other countries would get involved militarily though like you say Syria may allow Turkey to transit it's territory.

Still from a Generals pov it would be an interesting war as both are well trained and equipped to Western standards.

I was working off a Turkish invasion.

I could see the Turkish Navy being able to cause some trouble to the Israeli air force actually, I believe their ships have some good anti-aicraft capabilties and they could basically shell Israeli airbases constantly.  It would take a three way split to work though, Bombardment through the sea, infantry from the north and airpower from the sky, to split up the Israeli airforce enough to work though.

Then again I wonder what kind of protection Turkey really has against the modern missles of Israel.


It would be interesting because we only really have vague ideas on what's important in a modern war between two near equals.

Horrifying... but interesting.


Ha, not as interesting as India vs. Chia, or USA vs. Russia

US Vs Russa?

The US has 9 times the aircraft as Russia, and they're a step ahead technology wise... and even when the T-50 is ready for more production it's not quite in the league as the US planes.

The US also has 10 times the Navy, and an even more advanced navy, meaning what few Naval ports Russia has, will be blockaded pretty eaisly, and... the armies are about even.  It'd just be a matter of US ground forces being supported by planes and the US 11 cariers...

Then you take into account the US has a slight military numbers advantage, larger population, larger military reserves and larger economy....

 

India vs China... I don't know enough about Indian Technology.  I wouldn't expect a landwar vs china to go well, when your right on the border though.

 


Yeah that's what Hitler though when he launched Barbarosa and and before Hitler, it was Napoleon. I think USA would harm Russia a lot, but they wouldn't defeat it (enter moscow). USA would have more succes on Russian soil than russians would on american. I believe whichever country would be defensive would win. I mean, USA  wasn't very successful against poor equipped Viet Cong, I doubt they would be much more successful against much much MUCH better equipped russians

Actually, the US was EXTREMELY successful vs the viet cong.

It was something like a 3 to 1 casaulty ratio despite the fact that the US decided to fight a nearly fully defensive war and that we were supporting an ally that had numerous NLF supporters in it.

It would of been the equilvent of Iraq.... if instead of taking out Sadam Hussein, the US only took half the country, and refused to invade the second half.

Except, not even that bad, since the US armed forces is a lot larger then it was pre-draft.

 

The US could likely "take over" Russia, now holding it after the war was one... that's a different story.


So going by that logic, Germany was very succesfull against Soviets because they brought them up much hihger casualties. Hell, Axis crushed allies if we take casualties into consideration.  The thing is, the number of casualties doesnt determain whos sucesfull and who lost. The end result determains that. And the end result was - Soviets defeated Germans and destroyed their capital. Just like the end result is -  US army retreats and communist Viet Cong wins the war.

And just for referance, I only brought up Russia becuse its most close to US in military power



Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Actually, the US was EXTREMELY successful vs the viet cong.

It was something like a 3 to 1 casaulty ratio despite the fact that the US decided to fight a nearly fully defensive war and that we were supporting an ally that had numerous NLF supporters in it.

It would of been the equilvent of Iraq.... if instead of taking out Sadam Hussein, the US only took half the country, and refused to invade the second half.

Except, not even that bad, since the US armed forces is a lot larger then it was pre-draft.

 

The US could likely "take over" Russia, now holding it after the war was one... that's a different story.


So going by that logic, Germany was very succesfull against Soviets because they brought them up much hihger casualties. Hell, Axis crushed allies if we take casualties into consideration.  The thing is, the number of casualties doesnt determain whos sucesfull and who lost. The end result determains that. And the end result was - Soviets defeated Germans and destroyed their capital. Just like the end result is -  US army retreats and communist Viet Cong wins the war.

And just for referance, I only brought up Russia becuse its most close to US in military power

Sure, that's all that matters... if you don't actually care about extrapolating the results of a war forward to future events. 

However, that's exactly what you're trying to do.

To use an exagerated scenario to show the silliness of your point...

If the US were to declare war on Russia today, send one expiermental fighter to russia, destroy 1,000 russian fighters before that one fighter crash landed due to mechanical failures, then the US surrendered... the US would of lost that war. 

To suggest that was proof the US had "No success" vs russia and would lose a war, despite the US rolling out 500 of those fighters next week is the epitome of sillliness however.

There is zero chance the US would fight a war in Russia like they did a war in vietnam.



Kasz216 said:
Player1x3 said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Actually, the US was EXTREMELY successful vs the viet cong.

It was something like a 3 to 1 casaulty ratio despite the fact that the US decided to fight a nearly fully defensive war and that we were supporting an ally that had numerous NLF supporters in it.

It would of been the equilvent of Iraq.... if instead of taking out Sadam Hussein, the US only took half the country, and refused to invade the second half.

Except, not even that bad, since the US armed forces is a lot larger then it was pre-draft.

 

The US could likely "take over" Russia, now holding it after the war was one... that's a different story.


So going by that logic, Germany was very succesfull against Soviets because they brought them up much hihger casualties. Hell, Axis crushed allies if we take casualties into consideration.  The thing is, the number of casualties doesnt determain whos sucesfull and who lost. The end result determains that. And the end result was - Soviets defeated Germans and destroyed their capital. Just like the end result is -  US army retreats and communist Viet Cong wins the war.

And just for referance, I only brought up Russia becuse its most close to US in military power

Sure, that's all that matters... if you don't actually care about extrapolating the results of a war forward to future events. 

However, that's exactly what you're trying to do.

To use an exagerated scenario to show the silliness of your point...

If the US were to declare war on Russia today, send one expiermental fighter to russia, destroy 1,000 russian fighters before that one fighter crash landed due to mechanical failures, then the US surrendered... the US would of lost that war. 

To suggest that was proof the US had "No success" vs russia and would lose a war, despite the US rolling out 500 of those fighters next week is the epitome of sillliness however.

There is zero chance the US would fight a war in Russia like they did a war in vietnam.

Hey man, people from the future would look back and only see the final result of the war. Now it doesnt matter if US destroyed 100000 of russian fighters, if the russians won at the end, or Americans failed to achieve their goal (whatever that might would be). I said in my post that US would more likely to bring higher casualties to Russia than vice versa, but none of that would matter if they would lose a war at the end. I also never denied that US would more likely to get off easier if the war were to happen. I am just arguing that the casualties dont decide the winner, the end result does.

 

As for your last sentence, that would depend on where the war is happening, why the war is happening, what are the goals of each sides, and on what scale is war being fought.