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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why do people talk about the decline of American power? Where is the evidence?

mrstickball said:
Badassbab said:
mrstickball said:
I'd say our decline is primarily the result of over-spending on the War on Terror, and increasing our national debt by significant margins in the past 10 years - we've added about 10 trillion to the debt in a little over 10 years, which is horrible.

Most of our problems, though, could be rectified very quickly with the right people in power. I don't think our decline is a serious one - just one that needs addressed with a few measures.

China's rise doesn't mean the US is declining. It just means they are rising. However, they have a lot more deep-rooted problems than we do. They are not making friends in the area, as they are harassing the Indians, Vietnamese and Fillipinos due to the Spratly issue.

In addition, the reality is that we're evolving into a tri-polar future in regards to superpowers and alliances. It will be similar to the one we saw immediately after the Sino-Soviet collapse of the 60s, but instead of Moscow, it will be New Delhi.

Additionally, as mentioned somewhat, the backlash against Chinese aggression and force progression will only get more vocal. ASEAN will be a very prominent force in the future, especially backed by the rapidly advancing Korean economic complex. The Indonesians have recently signed onto a joint venture with South Korea on a 4.5 or 5th generation fighter, which is pretty much unheard of outside of Beijing and Russia. Likely, such armaments will spread throughout the region, fortifying the enemies of China, which will counter their influence.

Why say all of this? Because it shows that China has a lot of struggles ahead. They are a superpower with superpower problems, but few superpower solutions that America has been afforded - namely democracy and a general history of non-aggression. Both will hurt China immensely in the next 20 years.

In the end, we're not declining. Other nations are increasing, and there is nothing wrong with that. The question is what will we and others do with the power that we wield.

I think the future will be more than tri polar. Economically it has been tri polar for a while (US, Western Europe and Japan centred) but of course now you can throw the BRICS groups of nations in there. The South Korean's aren't ready to make their own 5th Gen aircraft so they've gone out to tender and will accept 4+++ Gen fighters since currently there are no 5th Gen fighters available for export at the moment (F-35 delayed though will be tendered and F-22 export banned). Russia has offered it's T-50 but like the F-35 it's not ready yet and they are unlikely to win it due to the close defense ties between the US and S.Korea though the Russians have in the past managed to woo US arms buyers.

I agree the rise of China has created issues for itself (never mind it's internal issues) so the surrounding nations may wish to strengthen their alliance with the US but on the other hand since they are so close to China, Chinese influence will be massive and will grow while the opposite could happen for the US as it tries to concentrate more on it's domestic front. After all many great Empires have fallen due to complacency, military overstretch & economic issues and the US is not immune to such banes. I disagree calling China a super power. It's not there yet. And I disagree with your assessment on US non-aggression. The US military has been involved in a lot of wars over the decades.

I was about to state that the future will be more than Tri-polar, but I am somewhat skeptical of some potential outcomes, especially militarily. The EU is certainly an economic powerhouse, but I feel they will be de-stabilized for awhile due to the Greece issue, and this will likely throw them back a few years - not to mention the EU is lacking in strategic capacity in regards to their military. Compared to China, India or America, they are certainly taking a back seat.

SK has indeed tendered other fighters, but their future is through indingenous production: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4709554 . Indonesia has pledged another $20 billion in the near future, and I am certain that other countries will seek out ties with South Korea - Taiwan wants new craft, and Japan has had major setbacks with their F-X program. Additionally, South Korea is arguably one of the most poised economies in the world. Bear Stearns anticipates them to have the 2nd largest economy in per capita spending by 2050, and if unified would be even stronger by then.

The US has been involved in a lot of wars, yes, but not ones that have damaged ties with significant allies or made significant enemies... The Chinese have. Through a few moves, you essentially have 75% of Asian countries against China with only minor players still in their sphere of influence - Burma, Cambodia and North Korea.. None of which are military powers and have significant problems. China is starting to play into very questionable hands in Africa as well due to their food crisis. Although I think its a smart move for them, the long term effects may not be beneficial - as you've said, the more an empire meddles in the affairs of others, the quicker they lose. I think China is starting too early for that kind of thing, and will pay for it later.

I agree that the US is suceptible to potential downfall. I just don't think we've passed the Rubicon quite yet. We have not had our Stamp Act of 1765 moment.


Again I must respectfully disagree with some of your assessments. To say China has made some significant enemies isn't quite true. It has significant trade interests with pretty much all the countries around it's periphery and it won't be long before the Chinese Navy is capable enough to decisively win battles against it's potential rivals (except the US and maybe Japan and maybe one day India will have a first class blue water Navy). The US has in the past made powerful enemies such as the USSR as well. Also I don't think China is showing imperial ambitions yet, it's dealings in Africa isn't the same as European colonialism it's much more about securing resources and just general business and they are doing it in a very pragmatic way. They are not plotting to overthrow anyone who doesn't conform like the West does.

Regarding a multi-polar world I think the US will dominate militarily for a long time yet. Can't see a rival anytime soon but economically wise definately multi-polar and there is a limit to what military power can do (as we have seen time and time again). Where we could see the US facing challenge militarily is that low intensity conflicts bleed it dry while Russia makes more agressive moves in it's old imperial era sphere of influence and China in their's and basically it will force the US to spend ever more money on defense to maintain it's lead worldwide.



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mrstickball said:

we've been dragged into conflict by others


Have mercy on me! My milk...  T___T



MDMAniac said:
mrstickball said:

we've been dragged into conflict by others


Have mercy on me! My milk...  T___T

Care to offer a rebuttal in regards to WW1 and WW2?



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

as Bill Clinton would say:

Its the economy, stoopid



                                                                           

mrstickball said:
MDMAniac said:
mrstickball said:

we've been dragged into conflict by others


Have mercy on me! My milk...  T___T

Care to offer a rebuttal in regards to WW1 and WW2?

Well to be fair.  WW2 was really FDR's fault.

He basically forced the situation so the axis powers would HAVE to attack the US sooner or later... while running on a platform of non interference!



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mrstickball said:
MDMAniac said:
mrstickball said:

we've been dragged into conflict by others

Have mercy on me! My milk...  T___T

Care to offer a rebuttal in regards to WW1 and WW2?


Lol, I hope those two are not the only ones which you're aware of we've been dragged into by others? Because, you know, that history of non-aggression actually is much longer and still counts.. xD

Anyways, I had already written on WW2 in other thread not so long ago and you read that. Or need I spin banalities hereafter about role of American Corps in financing NSDAP? Need I tell you about Putzi, FDR's close friend and his protege, who also "happened" to become intimate of Hitler? And that assignment was given him by another spy, Truman Smith. Who was the first to make personal contact with Hitler (as early as in 1922!) and back then reported very promising estimates on him to the office?

I tell you what, yes the govs supported Hitler as much as they supported commies (well... actually not all the commies, but trotskyists mission) and they tried to kindle the fire in Europe as vigorously as Brits did. It's the ever-rotating story as you may see even from today' agenda if smart enough, so what? That's the true way of power and the strategy which actually works: look at today's footprint of US everywhere in the world. You should've acknowledged that and respected the titanic efforts and genius of the patriots who brought in so much wins in WW2 and thereafter. America is da beast owing to those people and yet you call them dolls who've been used and dragged... I'm speachless.



Krusnik said:
Im guessing the majority of the prognosticators a hoping for some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy just look at the countries that you usually hear this chatter from (Russia, the Arab world and pro-hardcore socialist states).
In terms of military strength i wouldn't even go there, the phrase "demons with clubs" (or is it demons) comes to mind. Economically, i agree with starcraft it's all relative though America does have problems they seriously need to address.


This might just be the most idiotic and unintelligent response I have ever seen on these forums. 



mrstickball said:

...but few superpower solutions that America has been afforded - namely democracy and a general history of non-aggression.

This one beats "moral bombings of Japan" by a mile. Glad I've finished my milk before I read this.

The other guy has clarified the issue rather well, except for overly simplistic and outdated view of politics as a sum of various national parties actions and desires. They are not national per se, that's why you'd rarely distinguish, say, US and British positions on given matters.

UPD:

Badassbab said:

Russia has offered it's T-50...

People, research your data before going into discussion, so you won't become yet another victim of lame journalism. Here's the aformentiond T-50 :D



mai said:

Badassbab said:

Russia has offered it's T-50...

People, research your data before going into discussion, so you won't become yet another victim of lame journalism. Here's the aformentiond T-50 :D


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA



Why?
Because PS3 sells better than RBox in the World, US/UK is not the first, not the best. lol.
Sorry M$, you'll lose again this gen.