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Forums - General - 'Living fossils' and amber fossils disproves evolution (the idea all life came from a common ancestor)

chapset said:
well simple organism are often a lot older then more complex organism so is it so hard to think they have reach the maximum of their evolution??? that they no longer need to evolve because they are so well adapted to their environment?? And what about the hundred of thousands of fossil that support evolution what about those?? where they put there by some sort of alien or god 6000 years ago when the earth was flat :P

You know... i believe in evolution, but you aren't helping the cause here...

this arguement is basically the posterchild arguement someone who doesn't believe in evolution would want to see...

because it's bascially a selfmade strawman that makes evolution look ridiculious.

 

1) Simple organisms still evolve. 

2) It wouldn't matter how much support there is for a theory if there is one thing that disproves it.  Truth isn't "Majority rules".  (These aren't proof agaisnt it though)



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Jumpin said:

The whole idea of people saying "Evolution is just a theory" actually makes you look quite ignorant and uneducated. You are substituting in one definition for another because the word is the same; it's as silly as saying "Well, if people are so unhappy about being in the lower class, why don't they just drop out and take something else?"

Scientific Theorem is an equation which is made up of laws and facts, it is NOT the same as "well, I have a theory that maybe if I buy her a box of candy that she will go on a date with me."

 

In Evolutionary theory, the fact that some species have survived with little change for hundreds of millions of years is largely due to the fact that they evolved into a creature that is highly successful. If a species remains highly successful with its current traits, then mutations won't necessarilly mean a more successful species that will eliminate the current one if the successful traits keep breeding on. Not all species that have successful branches evolve off of them will go extinct either; ferns are a good example of this, all gynosperm plants evolved from ferns (non-flowering plants, those that use pinecones, for example), and angiosperms (flowering plants) evolved from gymnosperms; while plants have proven to be better adapted to many environments, they have not been able to out-compete ferns in the environments which ferns can thrive in - in fact, the shady environments that trees provide are actually much more suitable for ferns than other species of plant.

Yep.  It's kinda like suggesting that two Magic The Gathing players didn't start at the same time because one's deck had changed way more then anothers has since they both supposidly started.

If your better at the "meta game" you don't need to change.  Some evolutions are just "broken." 



Things evolve.  Get over it.  It is a fact that things do evolve over time.  Do argue otherwise, is absurd.  Well, it is absurd to argue otherwise on a VIDEOGAME site also.

Now, do you want to argue there is limits to the extent things can evolve in an unguided manner, and also whether or not life can come into being unless done by processes that are engineered, that is another issue.  But to say, BLAMMO there is no evolution, is absurd.

Consider the case of adaptive mutations, which has been seen, where environmental pressures will cause a mutation to happen, in response to changes in the environment: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6646.short

Abstract

Upon starvation some Escherichia coli cells undergo a transient, genome-wide hypermutation (called adaptive mutation) that is recombination-dependent and appears to be a response to a stressful environment. Adaptive mutation may reflect an inducible mechanism that generates genetic variability in times of stress. Previously, however, the regulatory components and signal transduction pathways controlling adaptive mutation were unknown. Here we show that adaptive mutation is regulated by the SOS response, a complex, graded response to DNA damage that includes induction of gene products blocking cell division and promoting mutation, recombination, and DNA repair. We find that SOS-induced levels of proteins other than RecA are needed for adaptive mutation. We report a requirement of RecF for efficient adaptive mutation and provide evidence that the role of RecF in mutation is to allow SOS induction. We also report the discovery of an SOS-controlled inhibitor of adaptive mutation, PsiB. These results indicate that adaptive mutation is a tightly regulated response, controlled both positively and negatively by the SOS system.

I would suggest people who want to go into what I wrote above, look into the book, "Darwin in the Genome", which shows how the mechanics of evolution are more weird, wild, and unexpected than one would initially think, that speaks of species developing strategies for evolution, to adapt:

http://ncse.com/rncse/27/3-4/review-darwin-genome

 

 



Kasz216 said:
chapset said:
well simple organism are often a lot older then more complex organism so is it so hard to think they have reach the maximum of their evolution??? that they no longer need to evolve because they are so well adapted to their environment?? And what about the hundred of thousands of fossil that support evolution what about those?? where they put there by some sort of alien or god 6000 years ago when the earth was flat :P

You know... i believe in evolution, but you aren't helping the cause here...

this arguement is basically the posterchild arguement someone who doesn't believe in evolution would want to see...

because it's bascially a selfmade strawman that makes evolution look ridiculious.

 

1) Simple organisms still evolve. 

2) It wouldn't matter how much support there is for a theory if there is one thing that disproves it.  Truth isn't "Majority rules".  (These aren't proof agaisnt it though)

1) I mean some simple organims my mistake

2) evolution is not a law, as in you cannot predict the result of evolution by looking at past experience or data, finding one or several species that didn't evolve because they didn't need to doesn't disprove the fact that undread of thousands of species did evolve. to disprove evolution you would need to show that not a single organism did evolve trough history but that something else happenned



Bet reminder: I bet with Tboned51 that Splatoon won't reach the 1 million shipped mark by the end of 2015. I win if he loses and I lose if I lost.

chapset said:
Kasz216 said:
chapset said:
well simple organism are often a lot older then more complex organism so is it so hard to think they have reach the maximum of their evolution??? that they no longer need to evolve because they are so well adapted to their environment?? And what about the hundred of thousands of fossil that support evolution what about those?? where they put there by some sort of alien or god 6000 years ago when the earth was flat :P

You know... i believe in evolution, but you aren't helping the cause here...

this arguement is basically the posterchild arguement someone who doesn't believe in evolution would want to see...

because it's bascially a selfmade strawman that makes evolution look ridiculious.

 

1) Simple organisms still evolve. 

2) It wouldn't matter how much support there is for a theory if there is one thing that disproves it.  Truth isn't "Majority rules".  (These aren't proof agaisnt it though)

1) I mean some simple organims my mistake

2) evolution is not a law, as in you cannot predict the result of evolution by looking at past experience or data, finding one or several species that didn't evolve because they didn't need to doesn't disprove the fact that undread of thousands of species did evolve. to disprove evolution you would need to show that not a single organism did evolve trough history but that something else happenned

yes exactly, you would have to show that something else happened instead. And yes, laws only exist for specifically measureable theories, like gravity or the speed of light. Because we cannot adequately quantify the value of some change in environment, we cannot mathematically figure it out. But, it is possible that one day there will be enough evidence to quantify those  effects, but would require an enourmous amount of variables.



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StokedUp said:
And the idea that a "God" exists, and that an "Angel" came and told a bloke that his partner is pregnant but hasnt had sex (because that's possible) doesnt sound ridiculous at all no no no not at all. i mean the proofs there in a book what more proof do you need? if the book says so then it must be true right?....right?


Haahahaha, please, go actually read whats the topic about, at least the first 10 sentences, and than come back and ''enlighten us''



thismeintiel said:
theprof00 said:
thismeintiel said:

I think the main thing to realize is its just a theory and will remain so. So really, I see no difference in people who put faith in the Bible and God and those who put their faith in a theory and imperfect men (though still very bright) to know all the answers to life. One thing that I do know for certain, though, is that both sides need to quit insulting and attacking the other. Believers in Creationism shouldn't feel they are better people than those that believe in evolution. And people who believe in evolution shouldn't feel they are vastly superior intellectually just because they believe in said theory. I know that doesn't describe everyone under the discussion, but I do sense that air of superiority from some of you.

just a theory. As if there is anything better in science than that, and yet we've used our theories to do impossible things, things more impossible than miracles.

There is.  Its called a law.


Evolution is a fact. Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact



chapset said:
Kasz216 said:
chapset said:
well simple organism are often a lot older then more complex organism so is it so hard to think they have reach the maximum of their evolution??? that they no longer need to evolve because they are so well adapted to their environment?? And what about the hundred of thousands of fossil that support evolution what about those?? where they put there by some sort of alien or god 6000 years ago when the earth was flat :P

You know... i believe in evolution, but you aren't helping the cause here...

this arguement is basically the posterchild arguement someone who doesn't believe in evolution would want to see...

because it's bascially a selfmade strawman that makes evolution look ridiculious.

 

1) Simple organisms still evolve. 

2) It wouldn't matter how much support there is for a theory if there is one thing that disproves it.  Truth isn't "Majority rules".  (These aren't proof agaisnt it though)

1) I mean some simple organims my mistake

2) evolution is not a law, as in you cannot predict the result of evolution by looking at past experience or data, finding one or several species that didn't evolve because they didn't need to doesn't disprove the fact that undread of thousands of species did evolve. to disprove evolution you would need to show that not a single organism did evolve trough history but that something else happenned


1) They all evolve though.

2)  Re-read the OP.  The thread is about evolution as the single source of life for all creatures on earth.  Aside from which, if you accepted the fact that some organisms didn't evolve, you would have to question evolution as a whole since morphologic evolution is based wholey on conjecture.  We've never recorded it happen and we only have fossils that suggest it has happened.  Fossil evidence and very similar birds with very few differences  Fossil evidence has been misread before, like many dinosaur breeds that never really existed. 

It's possible, though not very plausable that said fossil "proof" could of just been stitched together by the people studying it as a logical progression, like Dinosaur bones that were stichted together that were really from two/three differnet dinosaurs.  If there were living beings who weren't evolving it would very much call into question evolution.

At the very least, finding non evolving creatures on earth would completely throw up in the air what species did and didn't evovle.



trashleg said:
I thought evolution was explained as simply certain alleles being passed on, which meant the alternate allele of that gene (responsible for a phenotypic trait) eventually died out.

Basic example: In those situations where being tall is more beneficial than being short, the tall people survive better and therefore have better birth rates, until eventually all the shorties die off.

Imagine all the potential traits that have shown through as the better ones in the history of biology, and evolution makes sense. The organisms which haven't changed in 50 million years may just have much the same gene pool now as they did then, thus the changes that occurred generation to generation were never permanent. So to simply say "they didn't need to evolve" could well answer the question, but hopefully my explanation makes it seem more realistic?

And the reason some modern organisms (ie apes and humans) exist at the same time? - could be explained possibly by the idea that as some of the population became more discriminate over their sexual partners, the rest of the population were still procreating with each other. Thus you get branching of the family tree, which has led to modern day differences.


Science is ever-evolving, don't be so quick to rule something out just because it doesn't make sense

height and weight are also influenced by factors such as nutrition  and the ready availability of meat etc. especially in the 20th century has had a profoundly influenced mankind's physical growth , your man/ape existing together today being explained by sexual discreetness isn't needed because mankind didn't evolve from apes directly but both likely originated from a shrew like ancestor.



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Mistershine said:
Some things don't evolve because they don't need to.


Exactly.

Humans evolved so much because they had to survive. They adapted to their constantly changing environment.