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Forums - General - Prove that God exists

GameOver22 said:

It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.

I didn't respond to the post because it was faulty, as is yours.  



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zarx said:
GameOver22 said:
DeadNotSleeping said:
Runa216 said:
Furthermore, if anyone wants to continue to attempt to discredit scientific knowledge, then I challenge you to find a flaw in the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Best of luck to you. If you cannot think up a less biased, more accurate way to prove what is and what is not, then STOP SAYING THAT SCIENCE DOESNT PROVE THINGS. There is nothing more frustrating than a group of people who collectively are unable to see the evidence laid RIGHT out in front of them. It's even worse when certain...spiritual types are all "Where's the proof? where's the missing link? Your evidence is inconclusive" While arguing an opposing viewpoint that has even less proof (read: virtually none), and expect to be respected.

So have fun.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have at the moment, but it is grievously flawed.  For one thing, it is not a fraud detection system.  It is easy to read the reports and deduce the validity of their methods, but if someone fabricated results it is not so obvious.  The strange belief that there's a positive correlation between vaccines and Autism is a testament to this.

Secondly, bias influences the peer review process; there are many scientists out there who are not so pure as to permit contradictory conclusions to their own hypotheses to gain momentum; indeed, some throw their weight around to suppress new discoveries that threaten their own work.  When corporations finance scientific research, this becomes commonplace.

Finally, there is a disparity between nations when it comes to representation in scientific journals.  Even in cases where the methods and conclusions are quite reasonable, research and discoveries made by those in developing nations is admittedly underrepresented by the scientific community. People also erroneously conclude that a lack of data acquired by the Scientific Method equates to the absence of phenomena.

The Scientific Method is the best system we have but it is far, far from perfect.  At its best, it is a tool for critical thinking.  At its worst, it is a device to reject information even when it is correct.  And it does not prove things.  It sets the parameters for making the most educated conclusions based on present understanding.  That's why things change as new discoveries are made.  Scientific Laws only apply to mathematics; universal constants (although new discoveries suggest that the Laws of Physics are different elsewhere in the universe), and should an event arise where the Law fails, all science based upon it must be ba cast aside.

This is why there are Theories, the closest thing to Laws that can exist without mathematics to back it up, Laws the closest things to Facts as far as we know.  Now you know why there's Mendel's Laws of Heredity, but evolution remains a Theory.


It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.


That is nothing like the scientific method, the scientific method requires testing all known controlable variables to insure a hypothisis is correct.

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

 

4. Test whether there is fire.

would be the scientific method which is at it's most basic:

 

1. Use your experience: Consider the problem and try to make sense of it. Look for previous explanations. If this is a new problem to you, then move to step 2.

2. Form a conjecture: When nothing else is yet known, try to state an explanation, to someone else, or to your notebook.

3. Deduce a prediction from that explanation: If you assume 2 is true, what consequences follow?

4. Test: Look for the opposite of each consequence in order to disprove 2. It is a logical error to seek 3 directly as proof of 2. This error is called affirming the consequent.

What you proposed would have failed the 4th step let alone the more complete method:

 

 

1. Define a question

2. Gather information and resources (observe)

3. Form an explanatory hypothesis

4. Perform an experiment and collect data, testing the hypothesis

5. Analyze the data

6. Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis

7. Publish results

8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

 

 

I think you missed my point. I'm not maintaining that what I just stated is the scientific method. It is simply the hypothesis testing steps of the scientific method in any given experiment (steps 3 and 4 in your list). You form the hypothesis and then test it. Through the test, the hypothesis is then confirmed or falsified. If falsified, a new hypothesis is investigated. If confirmed, then scientists repeat the experiments to confirm the accuracy of the hypothesis.

Also, my fire and oxygen example was a counterexample to show why affirming the consequent is an invalid argument form  (not an example of the scientific method at work).



nightsurge said:
  1. If you wish to believe in the Big Bang Theory or other creation theories that don't rely on a devine being, explain to me where the very first object in the universe came from. They say the Big Bang started from a very small amount of elements that began moving extremely rapidly in a dense state. Well, what about where those elements came from? They had to come from somewhere, correct? Just a little philosophical conundrum.

I don't know how the universe came into being, nobody knows. I also don't have to believe anything, I just see it as something that we will never know (at least not in my life-time).

There is an infinite amount of possibilities, it's not only "Big Bang" or "God", but theories like the Big Bang are way more likely than the outdated and evidence-less theory of God.



WereKitten said:
GameOver22 said:


It seems like everybody ignored your post, but I think you raise a number of good points. The one thing I always found ironic about the scientific method is that it actually utilizes an invalid argument form (affirming the consequent). The way the scientific method is structured, it says,

1. If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2. B is observed.

3. Therefore, hypothesis A is true. 

This is an invalid argument form. As a counterexample:

1. If there is fire, then there is oxygen.

2. There is oxygen

3. Therefore, there is fire.

Obviously, this is false because the presence of oxygen does not mean there is fire. In the same way, the first argument is false because the presence of B does not mean hypothesis A is true. This is why there is such an emphasis on repeatability in science, and scientists are always quick to point out they don't prove theories. The best they can do is repeatably confirm them, and they argue that repeated confirmation allows theories to become knowledge.

Overall, I agree with you that the scientific method is the best system we have for gaining knowledge about the empirical world, but it is still a flawed system.


Sorry, but that's simply not how the scientific method works. Your A-> B example would be a logical fallacy and no scientist would ever commit that, but the point is that the method works by temptative falsification, not by absolute confirmation.

In your terms:

1 If hypothesis A is true, B will be observed.

2 B is observed.

therefore

3 A is currently compatible with observations, ie currently not falsified

if NOT(B) were positively observed (maybe at a past point in time with better experimental apparata) then strict logic would imply NOT(B)-> NOT(A) and A would be a falsified hypothesis

Obviously, you can make up a lot of theories that are hardly falsifiable, but they are simply not good scientific theories: a good theory should both 1) have explainative/predictive power 2) be falsifiable.

String theory seems to have a lot of (1), because it seems to explain mathematically a lot of what emerges in several other more mundane physics theory. And yet it has, currently, basically zero in the way of experimental falsification. That is why most theoretical physics don't consider it a "good" theory notwithstanding all the explaining and semplification it seems to bring.

On the other hand special and general relativity or quantum mechanics not only did explain a lot, but have been tested against, literally millions of times in thousands of different experiments over the last century.

A scientist will never tell you that they are "true" in an absolute sense, but will rely on the fact that they survived falsification in those thousands of experiments and thus that they are likely to correctly predict the behaviour of the world in real cases similar to those tested. If one day a single experiment will - say - falsify general relativity, then scientists will look for a theory that a) predicts world behaviour at least as well as relativity in the previous N cases b) is compatible with that last (N+1)th result.

The method provides a ladder of increasingly accurately predictive theories, not logic absolutes based on faulty induction. Google for Popper.


Good response. Ideally, if science operated as Popper outlined, I would agree with you. However, science often operates more along the lines of verification rather than falsification. I'm not saying that falsification is not used because it is, but verification is used much more, especially in regards to  how experiments are designed as well as conducted.



Raido said:
nightsurge said:
  1. If you wish to believe in the Big Bang Theory or other creation theories that don't rely on a devine being, explain to me where the very first object in the universe came from. They say the Big Bang started from a very small amount of elements that began moving extremely rapidly in a dense state. Well, what about where those elements came from? They had to come from somewhere, correct? Just a little philosophical conundrum.

I don't know how the universe came into being, nobody knows. I also don't have to believe anything, I just see it as something that we will never know (at least not in my life-time).

There is an infinite amount of possibilities, it's not only "Big Bang" or "God", but theories like the Big Bang are way more likely than the outdated and evidence-less theory of God.


I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the universe needs a creator, but God does not.  I mean, if we came from something, and it has to be some divine being that's pulling the strings, who's to say that God, the almighty puppetmaster himself doesn't need to have been created.  If the universe can't be infinite, why can god?  



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

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Runa216 said:
Raido said:
nightsurge said:
  1. If you wish to believe in the Big Bang Theory or other creation theories that don't rely on a devine being, explain to me where the very first object in the universe came from. They say the Big Bang started from a very small amount of elements that began moving extremely rapidly in a dense state. Well, what about where those elements came from? They had to come from somewhere, correct? Just a little philosophical conundrum.

I don't know how the universe came into being, nobody knows. I also don't have to believe anything, I just see it as something that we will never know (at least not in my life-time).

There is an infinite amount of possibilities, it's not only "Big Bang" or "God", but theories like the Big Bang are way more likely than the outdated and evidence-less theory of God.


I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the universe needs a creator, but God does not.  I mean, if we came from something, and it has to be some divine being that's pulling the strings, who's to say that God, the almighty puppetmaster himself doesn't need to have been created.  If the universe can't be infinite, why can god?  

The argument comes from the claim that there cannot be an infinite chain of causes, hence, there needs to be a necessary first cause that terminates the causal chain. As to why God does not need a creator in the same way as the universe, that is the whole idea of a necessary being. It is not contingent and does not rely on something else for its existence. It is meant to supply the ultimate foundation upon which everything else is based. This is why you see many religious debates center around the concept of a necessary being and whether it is a meaningful term. In many cases, the gulf between atheists and theists comes down to whether they find a necessary being to be a reasonable proposition.



GameOver22 said:
Runa216 said:
Raido said:
nightsurge said:
  1. If you wish to believe in the Big Bang Theory or other creation theories that don't rely on a devine being, explain to me where the very first object in the universe came from. They say the Big Bang started from a very small amount of elements that began moving extremely rapidly in a dense state. Well, what about where those elements came from? They had to come from somewhere, correct? Just a little philosophical conundrum.

I don't know how the universe came into being, nobody knows. I also don't have to believe anything, I just see it as something that we will never know (at least not in my life-time).

There is an infinite amount of possibilities, it's not only "Big Bang" or "God", but theories like the Big Bang are way more likely than the outdated and evidence-less theory of God.


I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the universe needs a creator, but God does not.  I mean, if we came from something, and it has to be some divine being that's pulling the strings, who's to say that God, the almighty puppetmaster himself doesn't need to have been created.  If the universe can't be infinite, why can god?  

The argument comes from the claim that there cannot be an infinite chain of causes, hence, there needs to be a necessary first cause that terminates the causal chain. As to why God does not need a creator in the same way as the universe, that is the whole idea of a necessary being. It is not contingent and does not rely on something else for its existence. It is meant to supply the ultimate foundation upon which everything else is based. This is why you see many religious debates center around the concept of a necessary being and whether it is a meaningful term. In many cases, the gulf between atheists and theists comes down to whether they find a necessary being to be a reasonable proposition.

Some philosophers thought that instead of saying "God is", they went the other way around, which is, "God is not" - i think in english it`s called... i have no idea, but i`ll call it negative way. They start with the negative to reach the positive.
Which goes somewhat around those lines: we are finite, imperfect and limited; we didn`t and can`t create nothing in a way that isn`t finite, imperfect and limited because we don`t know what those qualities mean at all, whoever created life is exactly the opposite: infinite, perfect and not limited. So, if we, given our qualities, are bounded one way or another, than God isn`t, therefore He doesn`t need anything but Himself. God is all, every possibility in potency, while what is created is just a fragment possibility - so to speak.
So if all we can create is limited, finite and imperfect, God must be what we are not.



why do ppl in vgchartz like to arguing about religion soo much....................



maybe i'm probably not thinking into the subject to clearly or not but if i recall correctly unless you were indoctrinated a belief in a god in the womb of your mother, you were born an atheist yourself. you develop a belief in a god as your parents began to muster the thought in your head as you get order. i'm not throwing out the possibility that there is something out there that we humans have yet to unveil but the dieties that man have created to justify that there is a being out there that intervenes in our world is ubsurd. because there isn't any evidence to jusify the christian god or the muslim god or the jew god or zeus or madusa is real.



We live in a universe in which everything has to come from something. Matter cannot come from nothing. The universe had to begin at some point, and whatever force put this machine in motion is obviously not bound by the physical laws of our universe. It wouldn't be inappropriate to label this force/deity/whatever God, I think.

Now, the nature of said God still remains a mystery to me. I identified myself as Roman Catholic up until a month or so ago, but inconsistencies in the Bible and the nature of God Catholicism (and to a degree Christianity in general) present don't make much sense to me.