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DeadNotSleeping said:
I suppose none of my experiences would not be considered evidence, much less proof. After all, they didn't occur in a lab so it wouldn't conform to the Scientific Method or be considered empirical. I don't mind, though.

There was one time about...fifteen years ago. I was in a Bible Camp at one of the nightly campfires where we'd sing songs, pray and all sorts of other things that would probably make your eyes roll. And there was a band that played every night. Anyways, one night it started raining and that meant that the evening would probably have to end early, lest we all freeze while the water ruins all the instruments and stuff.

So the guy in charge of the camp asked us all to pray for the rain to stop so that we might continue to enjoy our evening and offer glory to God. The rain didn't stop. It rained harder. You could hear it, you could see it, you could feel it coming down harder. But none of us got wet.

True story. And I don't care if you don't believe me.

oh I believe that may very well have happened, but that's not proof in the slightest.  If you had never believed in god and weren't praying at the time, would you think that staying dry was some divine intervention, or just a weird coincidence?  If not for your predisposition to believe that the result was an act of god (or for that matter, you already believing in God), I don't think for a second you'd think "Wait, this is weird, must have been something out there doing that for me."  

There's no evidence to support what happened to you was an act of god.  You wanted to believe it was, so when something weird happened you attributed it to god.  It's a simple but common logical fallacy that's seen often in the religious, it's called "confirmation Bias."  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias



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@Runa216

asking for proof of God is a child's game, a parlor trick employed by intellectual neophytes for the sole purpose of gloating over the opponent's philosphical/theological beliefs and their inability to 'prove' them. It's annoying and immature, rightly so, because the person asking is aware of these truths beforehand. You understand that people cannot prove God's existence and yet you ask them to.
Well, let's turn this around on you a bit shall we.

Belief in the abstract is proof enough of it's existence. For example, you believe that you will wake up tomorrow, but you cannot prove it. Yet the belief is there and the thought, however speculative it may be, is real and concrete within your mind. Now, you can be petty and say... "I don't KNOW that I will wake up tomorrow" and while that is certainly true, it doesn't diminish the belief that you have in its certainty and you plan your life around this theoretical opinion... this belief in something you cannot prove.

Having said the above, I would like you to prove that you don't believe in god, not that he isn't real, but that YOU dont' believe in him. I would like you to show me empirical evidence of that, in fact, I demand it.
Of course you can just tell me you don't believe in God, but that doesn't 'prove' anything does it, at least not in any type of scientifically substantial way.

In your own words "In a world where we need absolute, undeniable proof of something before we believe it"... so...by your own words, show me undeniable proof that you don't believe in God.

In your own words " if Religion is to persist in the modern world it should be subject to the same criticism and rigorous testing the rest of our lives demand"... O.K., I'm with you on this. So by your own words, if your skepticism in God's reality is to persist, than it should be subject to the same criticism and rigorous testing the rest of your life demands. So, again, prove to me that you don't believe in God.

You cannot. I already know this, and to be honest, it was rather unfair of me to ask in the first place.



Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

To the OP I would simply ask you to explain to me what salt tastes like.  Assuming I've never tasted something so common as salt, how would you explain to me how it tastes?

It doesn't work like that... salt is something tangible, if never tasted it, you taste it. If it exists you try it. If God exists...

 

If you had never tasted or seen salt or met anyone who had tasted or seen salt or had no salt at all anywhere on Earth to prove it's existence would you believe in this so called 'salt'?

God does exist, prove him.  Just like you would prove what salt tastes like or if you wanted to see if a seed truly sprouts into a plant.  It's not that complicated.  I've experienced the power of God in my life.  I have a lifes worth of experience that you cannot disprove.  I know he exists.  How is this different from the parameters I set for salt?  Surely you could describe something so common as salt.

Because everyone can experience salt but not everyone can experience God...

You're feeling is not backed up by anything and millions of people don't feel the same way. I could describe salt with a lot of proof, I could actually bring it. You're not proving anything.

I never felt anything like God in my life, no one in my family is religious. If you had never been taught about it would you have felt it?

Not that many people are religious in Europe. So it's not just a matter of describing, you need more. I could make up and describe anything I please.

False.  Everyone CAN experience God.  Do you really want to know how or are you just trolling me?  I'd be glad to tell you how if you'd like.  The fact that it is impossible to describe what salt tastes like to someone that has never tried it illustrates my point.  Unless you try it yourself, you cannont really know.  In this same way, I have put God to the test and proved him.  He has made himself evident to me.  It's all the evidence I need.  If you have a true desire to know God he has provided a way for you to get to know him.

Not everyone can experience God. I can't and I know I never will. Same with most people around me.

According to your logic, my feeling must the truth and therefore God does NOT exist at all.

There, proven.

I'm curious as to why you don't feel like you can experience God and know who he is?

Can you experience Alá or Buddha?

If I say I believe in a three headed monkey that created the seas with tears and the earth with his dry blood, can you experience him?

Try.

I have never studied Alá or Buddha, you'd have to ask a member of one of those religions.  I know that the Christian God spoken of in the Bible exists and I know how to communicate with and know him.  I'm not sure what you are driving at though?  In answer to your question about the three headed monkey, if I had a desire to know and you provided a way to do it, I believe one could follow your directions and prove it to see if it is truth.  I asked a simple question that you did not answer, however.

A question can be answered with a question.

Simple answer: I can't experience something solely because someone tells me to.

It needs to make logical sense. My mind has to be able to accept it. And not everyone can accept that, no matter how much you instruct them.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

Sevengen said:
@Runa216

asking for proof of God is a child's game, a parlor trick employed by intellectual neophytes for the sole purpose of gloating over the opponent's philosphical/theological beliefs and their inability to 'prove' them. It's annoying and immature, rightly so, because the person asking is aware of these truths beforehand. You understand that people cannot prove God's existence and yet you ask them to.
Well, let's turn this around on you a bit shall we.

Belief in the abstract is proof enough of it's existence. For example, you believe that you will wake up tomorrow, but you cannot prove it. Yet the belief is there and the thought, however speculative it may be, is real and concrete within your mind. Now, you can be petty and say... "I don't KNOW that I will wake up tomorrow" and while that is certainly true, it doesn't diminish the belief that you have in its certainty and you plan your life around this theoretical opinion... this belief in something you cannot prove.

Having said the above, I would like you to prove that you don't believe in god, not that he isn't real, but that YOU dont' believe in him. I would like you to show me empirical evidence of that, in fact, I demand it.
Of course you can just tell me you don't believe in God, but that doesn't 'prove' anything does it, at least not in any type of scientifically substantial way.

In your own words "In a world where we need absolute, undeniable proof of something before we believe it"... so...by your own words, show me undeniable proof that you don't believe in God.

In your own words " if Religion is to persist in the modern world it should be subject to the same criticism and rigorous testing the rest of our lives demand"... O.K., I'm with you on this. So by your own words, if your skepticism in God's reality is to persist, than it should be subject to the same criticism and rigorous testing the rest of your life demands. So, again, prove to me that you don't believe in God.

You cannot. I already know this, and to be honest, it was rather unfair of me to ask in the first place.


I'm not following the logic at all, I'm not sure how the two relate to one another (my demanding proof of an existence of god and you demanding proof that I don't believe in God.)  How in the world would my beliefs make any difference in the matter?  whether I beleive in him or not is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make, the only thing that matters are my actions, which have been, in simplest terms, accusatory.  

I'm just not seeing how the two things are the same. I cannot prove I don't believe in God, but....*headexplodes*.  

(kudos, I honestly don't know how to answer this one, mostly because I'm completely dumbfounded as to how it's relevant.) 



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Runa216 Said:

oh I believe that may very well have happened, but that's not proof in the slightest.  If you had never believed in god and weren't praying at the time, would you think that staying dry was some divine intervention, or just a weird coincidence?  If not for your predisposition to believe that the result was an act of god (or for that matter, you already believing in God), I don't think for a second you'd think "Wait, this is weird, must have been something out there doing that for me."  

There's no evidence to support what happened to you was an act of god.  You wanted to believe it was, so when something weird happened you attributed it to god.  It's a simple but common logical fallacy that's seen often in the religious, it's called "confirmation Bias."  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a man of science, I have never seen the physical and chemical properties of water change to such an extent that a man can climb out of a lake, fully clothed in streetwear, emerging perfectly dry.  As a philosopher, I know logic.  I admitted that it wasn't proof, or even evidence in the very first two lines I typed, did I not?  You have established your system for defining reality and measuring the world, something outside of your acceptable parameters will be rejected.  Happens all the time.  Conformational bias can work both ways; skepticism can rationalize and deny things that a person truly experiences.  All I have is my own personal testimony and I know it to be true.  But I'll never be able to prove it, nor will anyone else for that matter.  Thus preserving your definition of reality.



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Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

To the OP I would simply ask you to explain to me what salt tastes like.  Assuming I've never tasted something so common as salt, how would you explain to me how it tastes?

It doesn't work like that... salt is something tangible, if never tasted it, you taste it. If it exists you try it. If God exists...

 

If you had never tasted or seen salt or met anyone who had tasted or seen salt or had no salt at all anywhere on Earth to prove it's existence would you believe in this so called 'salt'?

God does exist, prove him.  Just like you would prove what salt tastes like or if you wanted to see if a seed truly sprouts into a plant.  It's not that complicated.  I've experienced the power of God in my life.  I have a lifes worth of experience that you cannot disprove.  I know he exists.  How is this different from the parameters I set for salt?  Surely you could describe something so common as salt.

Because everyone can experience salt but not everyone can experience God...

You're feeling is not backed up by anything and millions of people don't feel the same way. I could describe salt with a lot of proof, I could actually bring it. You're not proving anything.

I never felt anything like God in my life, no one in my family is religious. If you had never been taught about it would you have felt it?

Not that many people are religious in Europe. So it's not just a matter of describing, you need more. I could make up and describe anything I please.

False.  Everyone CAN experience God.  Do you really want to know how or are you just trolling me?  I'd be glad to tell you how if you'd like.  The fact that it is impossible to describe what salt tastes like to someone that has never tried it illustrates my point.  Unless you try it yourself, you cannont really know.  In this same way, I have put God to the test and proved him.  He has made himself evident to me.  It's all the evidence I need.  If you have a true desire to know God he has provided a way for you to get to know him.



I'm curious. How has God proved his existence in your life?

This simple answer is that I have proved him.  I started with a sincere desire to know God.  From there I read from his holy scriptures and studied to learn more of him.  The scriptures tell us that if we lack wisdom to ask of God.  I did just that, through prayer.  I asked to know if what I was reading and learning was true.  The scriptures tell us how we can know the truth of all things.  Through the power of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost speaks to our minds and hearts in a still, small voice and causes our hearts to burn within us.  When our hearts and minds agree with the question we ask of God, it is a confirmation of that truth.  The key ingredient to all of this however, is sincerity.  If you aren't sincere in your quest to know God you will not find the answers to the questions you seek.

I have done these things and through spiritual experiences that I will not share on a public forum, I know that God is real and that he loves me and wants what is best for me.  No doubt whatsoever.  The Holy Ghost can leave an indelible mark on your heart that you will not be able to deny.  I have witnessed miracles around me and also had miracles happen to me personally.  All things in my mind denote that there is a God.  The stars and planets in their orbit, the nature of life itself and the vastness of the universe.

If you sincerely want to know these things that I've spoken of you merely need to plant that desire in your heart, nourish it with the word of God and see if it grows within you.  Mans words alone will never convince you.  The feelings of the Holy Ghost will.



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

it's relevant Runa because you're asking people to prove an abstract thought, which simply isn't possible. Knowing that going in, proof of God becomes nothing more than a fools game. I am not a spiritual person myself, I don't necessarily believe in any God... but I cannot ask someone else, who does believe, to provide me proof of their Gods existence.
Those that wrote the bible or the Koran were smart enough to understand the fundamental problem with spirituality, it cannot be stretched across a counter to be examined, or held up to the sunlight. It's a belief and there will be those of us that doubt it. Maybe, like me, you have a scientific mind that asks for more, substance is a very reassuring and necessary componant for belief, but, you won't find that in religion. Religion demands you suspend those questions of it, those proofs... and as it does so, it leaves it proponents with nothing to show the skeptics but faith. Again, that's why my first post is relevant, you cannot prove faith, only accept it for what it is and asking others to prove that God is real is no different than me asking you to prove that you'll wake up tomorrow. You can't do it, so it's better left alone.



Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

To the OP I would simply ask you to explain to me what salt tastes like.  Assuming I've never tasted something so common as salt, how would you explain to me how it tastes?

It doesn't work like that... salt is something tangible, if never tasted it, you taste it. If it exists you try it. If God exists...

 

If you had never tasted or seen salt or met anyone who had tasted or seen salt or had no salt at all anywhere on Earth to prove it's existence would you believe in this so called 'salt'?

God does exist, prove him.  Just like you would prove what salt tastes like or if you wanted to see if a seed truly sprouts into a plant.  It's not that complicated.  I've experienced the power of God in my life.  I have a lifes worth of experience that you cannot disprove.  I know he exists.  How is this different from the parameters I set for salt?  Surely you could describe something so common as salt.

Because everyone can experience salt but not everyone can experience God...

You're feeling is not backed up by anything and millions of people don't feel the same way. I could describe salt with a lot of proof, I could actually bring it. You're not proving anything.

I never felt anything like God in my life, no one in my family is religious. If you had never been taught about it would you have felt it?

Not that many people are religious in Europe. So it's not just a matter of describing, you need more. I could make up and describe anything I please.

False.  Everyone CAN experience God.  Do you really want to know how or are you just trolling me?  I'd be glad to tell you how if you'd like.  The fact that it is impossible to describe what salt tastes like to someone that has never tried it illustrates my point.  Unless you try it yourself, you cannont really know.  In this same way, I have put God to the test and proved him.  He has made himself evident to me.  It's all the evidence I need.  If you have a true desire to know God he has provided a way for you to get to know him.

Not everyone can experience God. I can't and I know I never will. Same with most people around me.

According to your logic, my feeling must the truth and therefore God does NOT exist at all.

There, proven.

I'm curious as to why you don't feel like you can experience God and know who he is?

Can you experience Alá or Buddha?

If I say I believe in a three headed monkey that created the seas with tears and the earth with his dry blood, can you experience him?

Try.

I have never studied Alá or Buddha, you'd have to ask a member of one of those religions.  I know that the Christian God spoken of in the Bible exists and I know how to communicate with and know him.  I'm not sure what you are driving at though?  In answer to your question about the three headed monkey, if I had a desire to know and you provided a way to do it, I believe one could follow your directions and prove it to see if it is truth.  I asked a simple question that you did not answer, however.

A question can be answered with a question.

Simple answer: I can't experience something solely because someone tells me to.

It needs to make logical sense. My mind has to be able to accept it. And not everyone can accept that, no matter how much you instruct them.

It is not my words that will convert you.  You are correct that Man CANNOT convert someone to God.  It is a personal relationship that you develop with God himself.  People serve as witnesses of him, but ultimately you can choose to believe what you will.  One of God's greatest gifts to us is our agency.  He will not force someone to do that which he does not want to.  I'm gathering from your responses that you have no desire to truly know if there be a God.  I hope I'm not coming off as trying to convert you with my words.  I am simply offering a few simple steps you can take if you really have the desire to know.  If you don't have that sincere desire, then our conversation must end and we will agree to just be friends with good gaming in common. (-:



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

Umos-Cmos said:
Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

To the OP I would simply ask you to explain to me what salt tastes like.  Assuming I've never tasted something so common as salt, how would you explain to me how it tastes?

It doesn't work like that... salt is something tangible, if never tasted it, you taste it. If it exists you try it. If God exists...

 

If you had never tasted or seen salt or met anyone who had tasted or seen salt or had no salt at all anywhere on Earth to prove it's existence would you believe in this so called 'salt'?

God does exist, prove him.  Just like you would prove what salt tastes like or if you wanted to see if a seed truly sprouts into a plant.  It's not that complicated.  I've experienced the power of God in my life.  I have a lifes worth of experience that you cannot disprove.  I know he exists.  How is this different from the parameters I set for salt?  Surely you could describe something so common as salt.

Because everyone can experience salt but not everyone can experience God...

You're feeling is not backed up by anything and millions of people don't feel the same way. I could describe salt with a lot of proof, I could actually bring it. You're not proving anything.

I never felt anything like God in my life, no one in my family is religious. If you had never been taught about it would you have felt it?

Not that many people are religious in Europe. So it's not just a matter of describing, you need more. I could make up and describe anything I please.

False.  Everyone CAN experience God.  Do you really want to know how or are you just trolling me?  I'd be glad to tell you how if you'd like.  The fact that it is impossible to describe what salt tastes like to someone that has never tried it illustrates my point.  Unless you try it yourself, you cannont really know.  In this same way, I have put God to the test and proved him.  He has made himself evident to me.  It's all the evidence I need.  If you have a true desire to know God he has provided a way for you to get to know him.



I'm curious. How has God proved his existence in your life?

This simple answer is that I have proved him.  I started with a sincere desire to know God.  From there I read from his holy scriptures and studied to learn more of him.  The scriptures tell us that if we lack wisdom to ask of God.  I did just that, through prayer.  I asked to know if what I was reading and learning was true.  The scriptures tell us how we can know the truth of all things.  Through the power of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost speaks to our minds and hearts in a still, small voice and causes our hearts to burn within us.  When our hearts and minds agree with the question we ask of God, it is a confirmation of that truth.  The key ingredient to all of this however, is sincerity.  If you aren't sincere in your quest to know God you will not find the answers to the questions you seek.

I have done these things and through spiritual experiences that I will not share on a public forum, I know that God is real and that he loves me and wants what is best for me.  No doubt whatsoever.  The Holy Ghost can leave an indelible mark on your heart that you will not be able to deny.  I have witnessed miracles around me and also had miracles happen to me personally.  All things in my mind denote that there is a God.  The stars and planets in their orbit, the nature of life itself and the vastness of the universe.

If you sincerely want to know these things that I've spoken of you merely need to plant that desire in your heart, nourish it with the word of God and see if it grows within you.  Mans words alone will never convince you.  The feelings of the Holy Ghost will.



Wouldn't be impossible for one to have a desire for something they don't believe in. Does that mean Athiest are damned even if they try their hardest to find him.?

crissindahouse said:
Umos-Cmos said:
crissindahouse said:
Umos-Cmos said:
 

God's DNA is a part of us.  We were created in his image, therefore we have passions and desires.  We are here to learn to master those passions and desires.  Satan is the one putting the dirty thoughts into your mind of all the bad things you want to do with said hot lady.

that sounds not nice. sounds like we are animals in a experimental station, i think i would have to go to jail if i would do that to someone...

I'm confused as to which part sounds "not nice".  We are quite the opposite of some experimental animals.  We each have the seeds of godliness within us.  He desires us to become just like him.  Not sure if you are christian or not, but this truth is stated many times in holy scripture.

not sure what would happen to me if i would breed some creature out of my dna haha or if i just would put my dna in some other creature to make my dna a part of this creature. i bet some christians would condemn me as freaking scientist wouldn't they? but it's cool that it happened to us?

Why are you referring to humans as "some creatures"?  I already explained to you that we are literally the children of heavenly parents.  A spirit and a body united form a soul.  We are the literal spiritual children of our heavenly parents just like we are physical children of our earthly parents.  It's not weird or complicated at all.



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER