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Forums - Politics - New Legislative Body - Super Congress

Viper1 on 24 July 2011
Rath said:
Viper1 said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
I hope all the assholes who have been crying about the need for bipartisanship are happy. Whenever Republicans and Democrats agree on something it's invariably worse than what either of them could ever dream up by themselves.

At least this, which in no way do I support, will be better than what will happen if they don't raise the debt ceiling.  End result is half the government shuts down, and guess who decides what half operates?  One thing, it isn't going to be anyone elected, or it will end up on Obama's desk.


You didn't read what I wrote above you, did you?  If we don't raise the debt ceiling, the government will not shut down.  Nor will even half of it.

Rath, not exactly correct either.  While we are currently a few billion already over the debt limit for the current fiscal year, we do have funding options to cover them rather easily.  Congress simply refuses to enable them.   However, the grand majority of the debt increase providing by raising the debt ceiling will be applied to programs the government has promised to do but never appropriated the funds for.   It's like telling your wife that will buy her a new car and then running around like a chicken with your head cut off demanding creditors raise your credit line to pay for it.

Watch this short video to explain it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-51rFiljBo&feature=player_embedded

To cut a trillion dollars in spending within a year would almost certainly throw the US back into recession. That's knocking off nearly a third of the US budget. He says cutting back that far would be easy, but I don't see where that money could be cut from in such a short amount of time.

Then you also heard of the assets that could used for funding purposes.  They could be used until parity with receipts and outlaws is reached.   Not cuts, no taxes, no defaults, no debt ceiling increase.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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HappySqurriel on 24 July 2011
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
What you really need is to strip one of the existing houses of most of it's powers - in most other countries it's the upper house (the Senate in your case) that's much weaker. That way you can't end up with such a deadlock between the two.

Deadlock is a feature not a bug ...

The government of the United States was designed with several checks and balances that tend  to result in deadlock when a party tries to do something without support.  It is only a really big problem now because politicians are so worried about how their statements or actions will be portrayed in a 24 hour news cycle.

When you have a major fractioning when nothing can be supported to a sufficient degree, then end result is that the check and balance system stops working.  What will happen when the money runs out is exactly what the Tea Party folk want... except of course when there is no one guarding the borders any longer, or other things they would like are stopped.  Sometimes a feature can kill you, if out of balance.

If you're that worried, and you think any solution is better than letting the debt ceiling remain where it is, write a letter to the president and your member of the senate/house and tell them to follow the Republican plan (cut cap and balance) that is supported by 66% of voters. If you believe that Cut Cap and Balance is worse than leaving the debt ceiling where it is let the checks and balances do their job and prevent that legislation from passing. Either way, the checks and balances are in place to support you ...

Which poll gives you that information? Here's a poll that gives a very different answer - only 28% of Americans support only spending cuts while 66% support a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/18/politics/main20080496.shtml

 

The cut, cap and balance plan is one from the extreme economic right, not from moderates, and it's proposed constitutional 'balanced budget' amendment is insanity.

 

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/07/21/poll-americans-support-cut-cap-and-balance

A CNN poll released Thursday shows that nearly two thirds of the American people support the "Cut, Cap, Balance" plan that passed the House of Representatives Tuesday, throwing a monkey wrench into President Barack Obama’s plan for a deal of grand design.

 

In other words, moderate Democrats, Independents and Conservatives are on board with the plan that is somehow on the "extreme economic right" because it expects the government to live within its means like the vast majority of Americans do.



Rath on 24 July 2011
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:

Which poll gives you that information? Here's a poll that gives a very different answer - only 28% of Americans support only spending cuts while 66% support a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/18/politics/main20080496.shtml

 

The cut, cap and balance plan is one from the extreme economic right, not from moderates, and it's proposed constitutional 'balanced budget' amendment is insanity.

 

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/07/21/poll-americans-support-cut-cap-and-balance

A CNN poll released Thursday shows that nearly two thirds of the American people support the "Cut, Cap, Balance" plan that passed the House of Representatives Tuesday, throwing a monkey wrench into President Barack Obama’s plan for a deal of grand design.

 

In other words, moderate Democrats, Independents and Conservatives are on board with the plan that is somehow on the "extreme economic right" because it expects the government to live within its means like the vast majority of Americans do.

Have you read through the rest of the polling data in there? 66% also support the grand bargain.



HappySqurriel on 24 July 2011
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
 

Which poll gives you that information? Here's a poll that gives a very different answer - only 28% of Americans support only spending cuts while 66% support a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/18/politics/main20080496.shtml

 

The cut, cap and balance plan is one from the extreme economic right, not from moderates, and it's proposed constitutional 'balanced budget' amendment is insanity.

 

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/07/21/poll-americans-support-cut-cap-and-balance

A CNN poll released Thursday shows that nearly two thirds of the American people support the "Cut, Cap, Balance" plan that passed the House of Representatives Tuesday, throwing a monkey wrench into President Barack Obama’s plan for a deal of grand design.

 

In other words, moderate Democrats, Independents and Conservatives are on board with the plan that is somehow on the "extreme economic right" because it expects the government to live within its means like the vast majority of Americans do.

Have you read through the rest of the polling data in there? 66% also support the grand bargain.


... and if a more conservative person was so worried about the debt ceiling debate that they thought that deadlock was unacceptable I would encourage them to embrace the grand bargain.



richardhutnik on 25 July 2011
HappySqurriel said:


In other words, moderate Democrats, Independents and Conservatives are on board with the plan that is somehow on the "extreme economic right" because it expects the government to live within its means like the vast majority of Americans do.

Exactly where does the concept of "vast majority of Americans" living within their means actually fit?

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

  • Average credit card debt per household with credit card debt: $14,687* 
  • 609.8 million credit cards held by U.S. consumers. (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010) 
  • Average number of credit cards held by cardholders: 3.5, as of yearend 2008 (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010)
  • Average APR on new credit card offer: 14.91 percent (Source: CreditCards.com Weekly Rate Report, July 6, 2011.)
  • Average APR on credit card with a balance on it: 13.10 percent, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)
  • Total U.S. revolving debt (98 percent of which is made up of credit card debt): $793.1 billion, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)
  • Total U.S. consumer debt: $2.43 trillion, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)

    •  

    Savings rates have fallen well below what would be desirable:

    http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/30/news/economy/personal_savings_decline.fortune/index.htm


    That hardly looks like "living within one's means" to me.  The debt engine all over the place has been running full throttle, and there isn't much else where America can go to jumpstart the economy.  

     




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    HappySqurriel on 25 July 2011
    richardhutnik said:
    HappySqurriel said:


    In other words, moderate Democrats, Independents and Conservatives are on board with the plan that is somehow on the "extreme economic right" because it expects the government to live within its means like the vast majority of Americans do.

    Exactly where does the concept of "vast majority of Americans" living within their means actually fit?

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

  • Average credit card debt per household with credit card debt: $14,687* 
  • 609.8 million credit cards held by U.S. consumers. (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010) 
  • Average number of credit cards held by cardholders: 3.5, as of yearend 2008 (Source: "The Survey of Consumer Payment Choice," Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, January 2010)
  • Average APR on new credit card offer: 14.91 percent (Source: CreditCards.com Weekly Rate Report, July 6, 2011.)
  • Average APR on credit card with a balance on it: 13.10 percent, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)
  • Total U.S. revolving debt (98 percent of which is made up of credit card debt): $793.1 billion, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)
  • Total U.S. consumer debt: $2.43 trillion, as of May 2011 (Source: Federal Reserve's G.19 report on consumer credit, released July 2011)

    •  

    Savings rates have fallen well below what would be desirable:

    http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/30/news/economy/personal_savings_decline.fortune/index.htm


    That hardly looks like "living within one's means" to me.  The debt engine all over the place has been running full throttle, and there isn't much else where America can go to jumpstart the economy.  

     


    How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?



    Rath on 25 July 2011
    HappySqurriel said:


    How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


    Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.



    HappySqurriel on 25 July 2011
    Rath said:
    HappySqurriel said:
     


    How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


    Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.

    With proper budgeting practices deficits are entirely unnecessary ...

    If you collect 5% or 10% more money that you spend and save it to ensure that spending levels can be maintained in the case of a economic shock, or increased in the case of war, and if you expend this fund you cut discretionary spending and increase taxes to cover the shortfall.



    thranx on 25 July 2011
    HappySqurriel said:
    Rath said:
    HappySqurriel said:
     


    How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


    Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.

    With proper budgeting practices deficits are entirely unnecessary ...

    If you collect 5% or 10% more money that you spend and save it to ensure that spending levels can be maintained in the case of a economic shock, or increased in the case of war, and if you expend this fund you cut discretionary spending and increase taxes to cover the shortfall.

    You mean keep a sensible budget and only buy/spend what you can afford and save the rest for a rainy day? Sounds right to me, and pretty basic too. You would think the government of the United States would realise this. Its amazing how bad spending has spun out of control.



    richardhutnik on 25 July 2011
    thranx said:
    HappySqurriel said:
    Rath said:
    HappySqurriel said:
     


    How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


    Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.

    With proper budgeting practices deficits are entirely unnecessary ...

    If you collect 5% or 10% more money that you spend and save it to ensure that spending levels can be maintained in the case of a economic shock, or increased in the case of war, and if you expend this fund you cut discretionary spending and increase taxes to cover the shortfall.

    You mean keep a sensible budget and only buy/spend what you can afford and save the rest for a rainy day? Sounds right to me, and pretty basic too. You would think the government of the United States would realise this. Its amazing how bad spending has spun out of control.

    Had to expect the government to do this, when the American public doesn't.  Yes, it makes sense, and is pretty basic, but few do it.